.458 Lott for Plains game?

[njc110381]

I've just been looking at load data for the Lott and it looks like with careful bullet selection I can develop something that will give me about 250 yards range without having to hold over/under by much. If I zero a 350gr bullet at 200m it will shoot up to just under 3" high at around 110m, and 4" low at 250. After that it's like throwing bricks! I don't much like shooting over 200m anyway. I enjoy a failed stalk to get closer more than I enjoy sniping at animals, just personal preference.

How many members have used the Lott for plains game? I don't have any plans to shoot them but if travelling all that way for a buffalo it would make sense to try to take a few others whilst I'm there?

 

[Von S.]

Now you're talking.

I have used the 458 Win mag and the 460 Weatherby for many years with lighter weight bullets, many of my design, to shoot animals of lesser weight than an elephant and have done swimmingly.

There is a guy named Bob who is selling a 460 here who is well versed on hunting with light bullets here maybe he'll chime in?

 

[Shootist43]

Lots of guys go afield with their scopes and loads adjusted for maximum point blank range. With that in mind you intend to have two loads for very different purposes. Each with their own characteristics, rest assured that you will at one time or another have the "wrong" load and or "dope" on your rifle.

 

[WAB]

I’ve shot plains game with my Lott. They were targets of opportunity on buffalo hunts so I was using 500 gr bearclaws. Max range has been about 120. It seemed to have adequate power for the task.

 

[Luvthunt]

I shot bait for cats with the Lott—good practice but seldom over a 100 yd

 

[Royal27]

@PHOENIX PHIL has had good luck doing just that with his .458 B&M and lighter bullets. He can give you some good direction.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I've just been looking at load data for the Lott and it looks like with careful bullet selection I can develop something that will give me about 250 yards range without having to hold over/under by much. If I zero a 350gr bullet at 200m it will shoot up to just under 3" high at around 110m, and 4" low at 250. After that it's like throwing bricks! I don't much like shooting over 200m anyway. I enjoy a failed stalk to get closer more than I enjoy sniping at animals, just personal preference.

How many members have used the Lott for plains game? I don't have any plans to shoot them but if travelling all that way for a buffalo it would make sense to try to take a few others whilst I'm there?

As @Royal27 mentioned I've done this with my .458B&M. The ballistics of the caliber are between a .458 Win and Lott. I've used the bullets you see in the link below. Absolutely devastating performance. Similar results as you that it's a roughly 250 yard/meter bullet, after that it's falling fast.

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/452-258gr-flat-base-raptor

 

[njc110381]

From cross referencing load data with different manufacturer figures I think the flattest performance will come from a bullet of around 350gr. Lighter and it's like throwing feathers, heavier and the velocity isn't there. I will look into the bullets mentioned, although there's a chance they may not be available to me here.

It's good to hear this is being done. I like to mess about with the boundaries of what a gun can be used for. They all have their designed application which they are best for but they can also usually be tuned to work for other tasks with a change of powder and bullet. In the UK a lot of my getting used to the rifle will hopefully be with light .45-70 bullets and low charges. It won't do anything for recoil familiarity but what it will do is make me familiar with the functions of the gun - cycling the bolt and the safety catch, trigger pull etc.

Lots of guys go afield with their scopes and loads adjusted for maximum point blank range. With that in mind you intend to have two loads for very different purposes. Each with their own characteristics, rest assured that you will at one time or another have the "wrong" load and or "dope" on your rifle.

I was thinking irons + maybe a low mag scope for the big stuff and something like an 8x56 Schmidt zeroed for the light bullets. Two sets of quick release mounts will allow either to be fitted quickly and be zeroed differently. That way the irons are there for what they are intended - whacking large, close targets that need the gun to be very responsive. The large scope could be added when a smaller animal needs to be aimed at further out. Close up the difference between the two won't be far enough apart for the irons not to function to an acceptable level with the light bullets too. Sure it's not perfect, but it will work. Dropping rounds and reloading won't take long, neither will adding or removing a scope. Anywhere I think I'm going to get a bit close to anything nasty the gun can be kept with irons and loaded with 500gr something with 4 in the mag. See something lighter further out - put on the 8x scope and pop a couple of light bullets on top of the heavies. With a suitable belt pouch with good access that will take what, 15 seconds at the most? If the game has legged it in that time I will be very unlucky, and the rifle will be carried in a defensive form for the whole hunt. Stumbling upon a buffalo doesn't allow time for changes to be made but sneaking up on a long shot usually does.

I had to look up the .458 B&M. Never heard of it! It looks like a handy cartridge though.

 

[Red Leg]

From cross referencing load data with different manufacturer figures I think the flattest performance will come from a bullet of around 350gr. Lighter and it's like throwing feathers, heavier and the velocity isn't there. I will look into the bullets mentioned, although there's a chance they may not be available to me here.

It's good to hear this is being done. I like to mess about with the boundaries of what a gun can be used for. They all have their designed application which they are best for but they can also usually be tuned to work for other tasks with a change of powder and bullet. In the UK a lot of my getting used to the rifle will hopefully be with light .45-70 bullets and low charges. It won't do anything for recoil familiarity but what it will do is make me familiar with the functions of the gun - cycling the bolt and the safety catch, trigger pull etc.



I was thinking irons + maybe a low mag scope for the big stuff and something like an 8x56 Schmidt zeroed for the light bullets. Two sets of quick release mounts will allow either to be fitted quickly and be zeroed differently. That way the irons are there for what they are intended - whacking large, close targets that need the gun to be very responsive. The large scope could be added when a smaller animal needs to be aimed at further out. Close up the difference between the two won't be far enough apart for the irons not to function to an acceptable level with the light bullets too. Sure it's not perfect, but it will work. Dropping rounds and reloading won't take long, neither will adding or removing a scope. Anywhere I think I'm going to get a bit close to anything nasty the gun can be kept with irons and loaded with 500gr something with 4 in the mag. See something lighter further out - put on the 8x scope and pop a couple of light bullets on top of the heavies. With a suitable belt pouch with good access that will take what, 15 seconds at the most? If the game has legged it in that time I will be very unlucky, and the rifle will be carried in a defensive form for the whole hunt. Stumbling upon a buffalo doesn't allow time for changes to be made but sneaking up on a long shot usually does.

I had to look up the .458 B&M. Never heard of it! It looks like a handy cartridge though.

A fixed 8 Power on a .458!!! I urge you to spend a little time behind the butt of a forty class gun at a range before investing in the theoretical. To paraphrase a fellow contributor whom I appreciate immensely, you can load that thing with a frozen herring and you won't need more than 4-power. And a fixed 8, regardless of manufacturer, is about as bad a choice for hunting Africa (or most anywhere I have ever hunted) that I could imagine. More importantly, all this theoretical two scope stuff set up for two loads tends to fall apart in the bush. You are drifting along behind your trusty PH and tracker two hours into trying to walk down a dugga boy. A beautiful kudu, zebra, bushbuck, whatever freezes at 175 meters. It is getting late to continue the buffalo approach and the alternative animal is about to bolt. Is anyone really going to change scopes and ammunition? And the truth is, a low magnification scope will make that shot much easier, just as accurately, and much, much quicker than searching for him with an 8-power.

If you really want to try and turn a Lott into a PG rifle with a light bullet, and the group difference is significant at 100 meters, then just tape the click difference to the side of the stock (or memorize it). Whatever scope you are using for DG will be adequate for any other game you will shoot at to include a duiker, and turning the top turret a few clicks is much simpler than trying to change scopes.

 

[njc110381]

Noted, and thanks! That's why I ask here. Having never shot a proper .40+ I can't see the issue with that plan, but obviously there is one!

I thought I'd try it as I have a spare one here doing nothing. No big deal, that's ok. To go at it from a different angle in that case, how do the lighter bullets from a big calibre perform on larger, tougher game? I would expect a .375 bullet at 350gr to penetrate considerably further than a .458 bullet of the same weight? Would something of that weight be adequate for buffalo or would that choice seriously hinder the ability of the bigger gun? I think I know the answer, but then I thought I knew the answer with the scope and it turned out I didn't!

I'm guessing that this is why people tend to lean towards a .375 or .416 as a multi purpose rifle?

 

[perttime]

One thing to consider: many scopes have multiple aiming points. Even a Duplex has a few, just pretty far apart - not to speak about Mil Dot scopes that some manufacturers are offering on low powered scopes too. With a heavy bullet that would require pretty accurate distance information, with the rapidly descending bullet.

 

[njc110381]

One thing to consider: many scopes have multiple aiming points. Even a Duplex has a few, just pretty far apart - not to speak about Mil Dot scopes that some manufacturers are offering on low powered scopes too. With a heavy bullet that would require pretty accurate distance information, with the rapidly descending bullet.

The MTC "Christmas tree" type reticle is fantastic. The scopes are just a little towards the low end of quality for my liking though. They're ok but not perfect. My current 1-5x is a large circle with a centre dot that covers about an inch at 100m. The circle allows some degree of hold over measurement. Enough for close work

 

[IvW]

8 x and Christmas tree reticle just don't fit with a DG rifle even if intended for PG hunting.

Two different scopes for a DG rifle with two different sets of ammunition is a disaster waiting to happen on a DG hunt.

If you must have the 458 Lott, then get a second rifle to pair with the 458 Lott and keep the Lott as a dedicated DG rifle, that is what is was designed for.

Personally I would recommend the 375 H&H for a DG(buffalo) and PG mixed bag hunt, there has never been a more versatile caliber for this application. Premium grade 300gr bullet and you are good to go, pair that with a low power variable with decent eye relief (1-6 is more than enough) and you have the best combination for such a hunt. No need to fart arse around with different loads and more than one scope etc. etc.

If it must be the 458 Lott, as I mentioned then pair it with another more appropriate PG rifle.

Good luck.

 

[Pheroze]

To go at it from a different angle in that case, how do the lighter bullets from a big calibre perform on larger, tougher game? I would expect a .375 bullet at 350gr to penetrate considerably further than a .458 bullet of the same weight?

I dont know if that is accurate. Here is a similar discussion quoted from Van der Walt Africa Dangerous Game Cartridges:

An interesting comparison is the one between the .375 H&H Magnum loaded with 380-grain bullets and the .400 H&H loaded with 375-grain bullets. The details are listed in the accompanying table and that is where I think the .400 H&H Belted Magnum will eventually come into its own. With this combination the .400 H&H Belted Magnum offers all the penetration of the .375 H&H Magnum with a 300-gr bullet, which is more than sufficient, and it beats the 380-grain .375" bullet combination on every other score.

Mr van der Walt claims that the SD is still high and the energy levels are greater, making for a bigger thump. I suspect the same holds true for the 458 with some weights.

 

[Red Leg]

I have played around with some of the ballistic reticles and turret designs. They are fun at a range, but I personally find them of limited utility in most actual hunting conditions. At least the hunting that I do. And as I have noted on other threads, I find the legality of hunting season, a sad excuse to use game animals as ultra-long range targets. I just can't imagine any utility for such optics on a relatively short range thumper like a .458.

I truly believe the secret to consistent accurate shooting at typical hunting ranges - say less than 300 meters - is extending point blank range rather than getting caught up with military type reticles. It takes a lot of practice with such optics to become truly instinctively competent with them while hunting - particularly when it might also be used for dangerous game. Most of my experience, particularly in Africa, is that all too often one has about five seconds to get off a shot. In such a situation, simpler is always better. Jack O'Connor's advice is as valid today as it was fifty years ago. Sight-in two to three inches high (depending upon caliber) at 100 meters and go hunting knowing that you can treat the shot as a point blank aiming proposition out to 250 - 325 meters depending upon bullet and caliber. A 2.5 inch high group at 100 meters with even a 300 gr .375 gives a point blank aiming opportunity out to 250 meters. A 140 gr .270 will do the same thing beyond 350.

Obviously, were I headed out for Argali at the top of the world, I might very well use a ballistic scope tuned to my ammunition. But in the several decades that I have been hunting to date, Jack's advice has proven infinitely more useful.

 

[IvW]

I dont know if that is accurate. Here is a similar discussion quoted from Van der Walt Africa Dangerous Game Cartridges:

An interesting comparison is the one between the .375 H&H Magnum loaded with 380-grain bullets and the .400 H&H loaded with 375-grain bullets. The details are listed in the accompanying table and that is where I think the .400 H&H Belted Magnum will eventually come into its own. With this combination the .400 H&H Belted Magnum offers all the penetration of the .375 H&H Magnum with a 300-gr bullet, which is more than sufficient, and it beats the 380-grain .375" bullet combination on every other score.

Mr van der Walt claims that the SD is still high and the energy levels are greater, making for a bigger thump. I suspect the same holds true for the 458 with some weights.

Lets not forget Mr. van der Walt is an author and has very little to no experience hunting DG with these calibers, so all these assumptions are well, theoretical...

A 404 Jeff or 416 Rigby would be the next best choice for a DG?PG one rifle. A better option for that task than the 458 Lott anyway.

 

[perttime]

A basic Mil Dot reticle isn't all that complicated. Just a duplex with a few additional dots that are 10cm apart at 100m, for more hold-over references. Sight in so that you are dead on at 100m (center of the reticle for close in) and see where you need to be for 150, 200, 250 and 300.

Forget about the christmas trees, though: too much going on in the field of view

 

[njc110381]

What I've failed to think about is the size of the kill zone. I'm not head shooting rabbits, I'm aiming at a heart the size of a watermelon.

Looking at the Hornady ammunition website the info is a little unclear. Annoyingly with all the bigger DGX loads the zero used is 100m, but the .375 is 200m. So it's hard to compare. At 300 yards with a 100 yard zero the Lott drops 25.1", the .404 Jeff 24.4" and the .416 Rigby 21.6". An extra 3.5" at 300 yards isn't worth fussing about I don't think, at 200 yards there's an inch between the best and the worst. According to my calculations which I can't guarantee to be the same as Hornady's, the 300gr H&H drops the same as the 400gr Rigby loading.

Of course some real world testing is needed to see what the actual figures are, but if those figures are somewhere handy then the only issue I can see is the recoil of the Lott making it harder to place the shot as accurately as I could with a .375?
Approximate maximum PBR for a 4" kill zone is;
.375H&H 195 yards
.416 Rigby 190 yards
.404 Jeff 180 yards
.458 Lott 180 yards

7STW which is my other option as a 2 gun trip, 245 yards with a 160gr Accubond. A big difference being that at 300 yards the Lott has dropped as much as the STW will at 450! Handy for following up a fluffed shot I suppose, but I'll not be shooting animals at anywhere near that distance otherwise. I'd rather watch and enjoy them without shooting than treat them like I would a paper target.

 

[Red Leg]

Most PG have a kill zone larger than 4 inches - hence my assertion that my .375's PBR is actually 250 not 195. That is the good news. The bad news is you need to add to your calculations the rifle's MOA and your induced MOA firing from whatever position you are using to form the basis of the calculation. However, the other good news is as you become familiar with the trajectory of a particular load and rifle, the aiming point withing the PBR can be adjusted slightly to compensate for a smaller target or for a target at a bit longer range. I personally find that easier and quicker, within a reasonable distance, than dialing turrets.

I have never used the STW. The only over bore rifle that I own is a .264 WM. I have shot it at the range a bit, but have yet to take it hunting. Mine is a large, heavy solution to launching a fairly small package. I have a 6.5x57 that is a much more pleasant hunting companion. Assuming it is reasonably transportable, I am sure your 7mm would do splendidly on PG so long as you are using a very tough bullet. Something like a 160 gr accubond would give you practical PBR of nearly 300 meters on antelope if not rock hyrax.

 

[sierraone]

NJC...Welcome to our forum...and pay attention to @Red Leg 's advice!