458 Lott and Vihtavuori

[Dr Lott]

Hi!

Due to powder shortage I have to choose Vihtavuori powder instead of Norma that I usually use (live in Sweden). I’m waiting for the license on a 458 Lott. Want to reload three bullets eventually, Barnes TSX 350 and 450 gr and Hornady 500 gr (I get a box for free when I buy). However, 350 gr Barnes it out of stock everywhere so that is something for the future. Now I have 500 gr Hornady DGX and 450 gr TSX. Neither of them has any load data for the N540 and N133 I currently have at home. It is possible though to get Hodgdon BL-C2, but its rather expensive (+20% up on Vitha and Norma).
I have Gordon relading tool, but when I have previously compared it on my other loading data its imprecise so I can’t trust it in a totally knew cartridge with so little load data to get information from.
The burning charts from ADI, Vihta, Norma etc differ as well. See BL-C2 for example. Between Norma 200 and 201 according to ADI (http://www.adi-powders.com.au/powder-equivalents/) and between 202 and 203-B according to Norma (https://www.norma-ammunition.com/sv-se/laddata) and finally below 203-B by IMR (https://imrpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/2020-burn-rate-chart.pdf).

To break it down:

Is 540 to slow for 450 gr TSX?

Is N133 better then N540 for 450 gr TSX?

Should I try something else?

I reload three cartrides, but its my first time with straight wall cases, so I’m little anxious.

 

[krish]

It looks likebonly n135 is the closest powder to imr 4895 or Tac or h4895. N133 is too fast. N540 is too slow acording to Barnes burn rates.
Krish

 

[crs]

Dr Lott,
The VV 4th edition load manual has loads for the .458 Win Mag and that should be close enough to your .458 Lott to be of use. I load mostly N133 and have never opened my can of N530 as N133 has done well for me. The 4th edition manual also has much good reading in addition to the load tables.

This manual may answer your present load questions and become a valuable reference.
Have fun.

 

[Dr Lott]

Thanks. Is this what you mean? https://www.vihtavuori.com/wp-conte...htavuori_Reloading_Guide_2021_ENG_ROW_www.pdf

I have read several times: Start With max load on win mag for lott. 500 gr Hornady has n133 for win mag according to vv load data. However, should the powder be slower in the lott vs win mag?

 

[crs]

My 4th edition was first printed in 2007 and the one you sent to me was dated 2021 and it may have been formatted for a computer screen rather than a book page. If so, then it may be the most recent version, but that doe not mean the load date has changed.

I see no reason for the powder to be slower for the Lott, I am not an authority on either the the .458 Win Mag or the Lott. In fact, my big-bore- DG rifle is th1s 1886 .45-90 and it kills buff and ele quite well with 450 grain NF FN solids at 2150 fps. It has 96% of the case capacity of the .458 Win Mag.

 

[Dr Lott]

I bought a bottle of BL-C(2), felt it was the best solution after all. I have no experience with straight wall cases and don’t want to take any chances at this point. Aiming for at least 2300 FPS (700 m/s). N133 there is load data on 458 win mag in 350 and 500 gr. Gonna try that for 500 gr Hornady soon and in the future 350 gr Barnes.

 

[Dr Lott]

First ladder done. 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85 and 86 gr BL-C2. Crimped the first one according to Lee (half turn down), was little to much (80 gr cartridge in the pic). 81-86 got little less crimping than that. Can’t wait to shoot. 92 mm COL was the goal.

 

[crs]

BlC2 is also a good powder.
Looking forward to a good report.

 

[Dr Lott]

I got the barrel yesterday and today i shot the first ladder. Interesting caliber . Its kicks alot even though i have muzzle break, kickstop and limbsaver slip on. But I think it’s manageable of hunting. Its the sound that I have most problem with (silencers in every other caliber). I think its going to be to heavy with a suppressor though.

Gr Bl-C2 - m/s - feets per second
80 - 646 - 2119

81 - 654 - 2145

82 - 662 - 2171

83 - 675 - 2214

84 - 688 - 2257

85 - 693 - 2273

86 - 700 - 2296

86 is max according to Barnes reloading manual. I want at least 2300 fps.

 

[crs]

Your 81 grain load at 2145 fps equals my .458 load at 2150 fps and I bet that whatever you shoot will not know the difference between that and your top load. You may notice the difference in recoil though? Maybe?

 

[crs]

Krish,
Your post mentioned two powders that I recently used in my 400 grain loads in my Winchester 1895 .405 WCF.
I had a 400 grain load reference for TAC and went with it first and found it to be very accurate with minimal deviation between shots. I took that to RSA and took the buff seen in my Avatar.

Back home, I began to load the 400 grain Woodies for my .405 double rifle and concerned with peak chamber pressure, I used VV N133 and with Pressure Test II, tested the TAC and N133 loads at 2100 fps . As expected, the N133 peak pressure was 10,000 psi lower than the TAC.
I am now using N133 for hand loads for .405 WCF rifle and DR , 45-70, 45-90, etc. and for full case loads, a 24 inch drop tube to evenly compress the powder.

 

[Dr Lott]

Your 81 grain load at 2145 fps equals my .458 load at 2150 fps and I bet that whatever you shoot will not know the difference between that and your top load. You may notice the difference in recoil though? Maybe?

To be honest, I have only shot 7 total and was some minutes between each, but ye, little more recoil on 86 vs 80 gr (+1000 joules). I wanted 700 because maybe i going to shoot up to 150 m, or even further, 200 m. Then every extra speed at the muzzle is good.

 

[crs]

Dr Lott,
You are preparing a powerful rifle load and to kill what game under what circumstances?
I understand that the typical shot range can vary considerable depending on the terrain where you hunt --for instance jungle VS desert. What are you planning for your hunt with your Lott rifle?

 

[Dr Lott]

Primarily moose this year. Probably bear next year. I know that my 9,3x62 is enough and on my beat this year - along a power line i the woods - the distance can be great. Therefore he muzzle velocity cant be to low. My 250 gr Naturalis is 2526 FPS and 325 gr Oryx is 2300 FPS as a comparison. Moreover its a copper bullet and speed could be an issue on 150-200 m.
A couple of weeks ago i shoot a roe buck on 200 yards on that beat and its like 400 m in either direction to shoot at.

 

[Forrest Halley]

I have noticed some interesting points in this thread:
Yes, the .458 Lott is quite a switch when coming from other suppressed rifles especially. I have always found it to have a mighty boom to it which far exceeds the normal hunting rifle which is for me a .30-06. So I can imagine the extent of your surprise.

You're striving for a particular velocity and it could be at the expense of accuracy. 2300 fps is a very handy velocity and a sure indicator of a terrific power level, but at what cost? The recoil will be substantial and will you be able to maintain the required accuracy level at that point?

You also mention shoot at great distance where you want to cover 400m possibly with 200m being an achievable shot for sure. I'm wondering if you might be asking a bit much of the .458 Lott in a role like this. Unless you're firing the a high BC bullet that is suitable for hunting the animals you are finding, I think you're better suited with something else especially if shooting over distance as the Lott is quite a handful from a bench position. The best BC bullets I found off hand was a woodleigh 500gr and driving that at 2300 fps with a +/- 4" gets you 270 meters point blank range. That's +4" 120-150yds and -4" at 270 yds with a .430 G1 BC bullet. The Barnes bullet 500gr was doing about the same. I ran some numbers and it looks like the 450 grain bullets might be a better idea if the longer range is something you seek as you can push them harder. It looks like every 50 fps over 2300 is an extra five yards in PBR. A 400gr bullet with a decent BC would be ideal, but Barnes doesn't sell them commercially. Woodleigh does however and if you could safely push that at 2600 fps you'd really be extending that range.

 

[Frederik]

I load my lott with 500gr woodleigh PP bullets at 2175fps Norma 203B 81gr. I can push it faster but at 50 meters with 1 MOA reflex sight I get to put the bullets almost all the time in one hole.

The lott is not made for distances beyond 200 meters it was developed as a charge stopper at close range.

If I was you I would look for 350gr bullets and hunt Sweden flat with it that way you will easily be able to shoot a Roebuck at 300 meters with a good scope. I doubt a moose will survive with a hit from a 350gr bullet at close range if you hit vitals.

 

[Dr Lott]

Thanx for your answers. I loaded 86 grain BC-L2 at roughly 2300 fps. It did shoot ok, and acceptable for 100 m hunting by far. But not in one hole (as my 9,3x62 does!). Go I going to try 84,5 gr and load a couple.

Barnes bullets in 350 gr is out of stock everywhere. 350 Woodleigh is an alternative. Gonna think about it for a while.

I think I gonna have two loads in the future, a 350 gr at 100-200 m and a 450/500 at sub 100 m. For roe bucks I use my sniper rifle (6,5x55) with Swarovski Z8i 3,5-28! It’s insane

Additionally I used my Ultimate Stock with alu reciever. I did put a limbsaver airtech slip on, on it. Did a comparison with my R8X-stock with kickstop. To be honest, standing up, i didnt feel any difference really.

 

[crs]

Forrest,
Your technical acumen and industry are most impressive! I will remember that when next stumped with a tough shooting problem.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Forrest,
Your technical acumen and industry are most impressive! I will remember that when next stumped with a tough shooting problem.

I enjoy the exercise of it and would be honored to be of help.

 

[Dr Lott]

I have noticed some interesting points in this thread:
Yes, the .458 Lott is quite a switch when coming from other suppressed rifles especially. I have always found it to have a mighty boom to it which far exceeds the normal hunting rifle which is for me a .30-06. So I can imagine the extent of your surprise.

You're striving for a particular velocity and it could be at the expense of accuracy. 2300 fps is a very handy velocity and a sure indicator of a terrific power level, but at what cost? The recoil will be substantial and will you be able to maintain the required accuracy level at that point?

You also mention shoot at great distance where you want to cover 400m possibly with 200m being an achievable shot for sure. I'm wondering if you might be asking a bit much of the .458 Lott in a role like this. Unless you're firing the a high BC bullet that is suitable for hunting the animals you are finding, I think you're better suited with something else especially if shooting over distance as the Lott is quite a handful from a bench position. The best BC bullets I found off hand was a woodleigh 500gr and driving that at 2300 fps with a +/- 4" gets you 270 meters point blank range. That's +4" 120-150yds and -4" at 270 yds with a .430 G1 BC bullet. The Barnes bullet 500gr was doing about the same. I ran some numbers and it looks like the 450 grain bullets might be a better idea if the longer range is something you seek as you can push them harder. It looks like every 50 fps over 2300 is an extra five yards in PBR. A 400gr bullet with a decent BC would be ideal, but Barnes doesn't sell them commercially. Woodleigh does however and if you could safely push that at 2600 fps you'd really be extending that range.

If I get 400 gr woodleigh, you have any load data to get it up to 2600? Preferably Norma or Vihtavuori.

When I reload 9,3x62 the goal is up to 5200 joule (3835 foot pound) of energy with accuracy. Hornady label their DGX 500 gr at 2300 feet. That is 7900 joule (5826 foot pound) I tried 86 gr BC-L2 on 450 gr TSX, 2300 and 7144 joule (5269). All my TSX brass had to be cut slightly after calibration.

How Do you guys think about this energy value. Do you use them for reference?