458/470 vs 500 Caliber Stopping Rifles

kurpfalzjäger

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Ooo , very impressive :) I still would prefer the power of a .500 Jeffery loaded with 570 gr Monolithic meplat brass Solids from Cutting Edge if l didn't have a PH to back me up though. I would attribute your success to pure skill :) . That said , l prefer the insurance of the .500 if anything does go wrong . An expert can of course use anything to pull off successful kills .
Mr. Mike LaGrange has probably shot more Elephant in modern time than any other gentleman ( being an elephant control officer ) . He never used anything other than a .30-06 M1 Garand loaded with A square monolithic meplat brass Solids . But for the " mortal man " he recommends at least a .458 of some sort.
I don't take offense to your view that .500s are for cowards. You are clearly skilled enough to be very successful with the .375 HH Magnum. I do find it , however , to be a very radical view , as the .500 is insurance for worst case scenarios. As an instance , my father recalls a rogue Indian Elephant in 1968 shot with a .416 Rigby . The Elephant was shot right through the ear and for all purposes , the hunters thought it was dead ! Then it got up again and had to be shot again ( frontal head shot ) . It fell and started getting up again ! Finally a Belgian Shikaree with a .577 Nitro Express Double Rifle Brained that Elephant with a 750 gr FMJ Kynoch slug.
Examination of the elephant caracass showed that both the first and second bullet had been correctly aimed , but didn't reach the brain . Penetration was ALMOST there. They made it through a lot of bone but didn't reach the brain .
Of course , this was a freak incident. The .416 Rigby is a VERY GOOD gun under normal circumstances . But in that kind of situation , having that .577 NE around was a big help . I don't see .500 users as cowards , but rather men who take no chances . :)

Let it be, it is hopeless.

Nobody has to convince me that cartridges like the 9,3x62 , 9,3x74R or 375 H&H Magnum are suitable for shooting buffalos. I have myself shot buffalos with this cartridges.

That cartridges bigger calibers, with which i also shot buffalos , work better and are an insurance if something goes wrong , there are a lot of people difficult or impossible to convince. They try rather to convince us on the contrary.
 

Wyatt Smith

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He never used anything other than a .30-06 M1 Garand loaded with A square monolithic meplat brass Solids .
I would think an M1 would be a terrible culling rifle for the same reason I wouldn’t want to use one in combat, it’s too hard to top the magazine off without fully unloading the rifle. If you have one shell left there’s no pulling back the bolt and topping it off the whole clip springs out and spilled your ammo. There’s too many bolt action 30-06 rifles to be using a M1 IMO
 

Hoss Delgado

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I would think an M1 would be a terrible culling rifle for the same reason I wouldn’t want to use one in combat, it’s too hard to top the magazine off without fully unloading the rifle. If you have one shell left there’s no pulling back the bolt and topping it off the whole clip springs out and spilled your ammo. There’s too many bolt action 30-06 rifles to be using a M1 IMO
Wyatt , l agree. I have been looking for his book " Ballistics in Perspective " for quite some time to add to my collection. I read it once many years ago :)
 

BeeMaa

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Wyatt , l agree. I have been looking for his book " Ballistics in Perspective " for quite some time to add to my collection. I read it once many years ago :)
If you are talking about Ballistics in Perspective by Mike LaGrange, it's available from Amazon and eBay for ~$40.
 

BeeMaa

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@TOBY458 - I know it's not a "stopping" rifle cartridge, but have you given any thought to a double in 500/416?
Basically 416Rigby performance with a flanged cartridge for better use in a double.

Commercial ammo isn't widely available but Norma does offer two kinds with Woodleigh bullets.
Brass available from a few sellers if you wanted to reload for it as well.
 

Forrest Halley

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I would think an M1 would be a terrible culling rifle for the same reason I wouldn’t want to use one in combat, it’s too hard to top the magazine off without fully unloading the rifle. If you have one shell left there’s no pulling back the bolt and topping it off the whole clip springs out and spilled your ammo. There’s too many bolt action 30-06 rifles to be using a M1 IMO
If you have one round left, the last round extracts and ejects and then the clip comes out. It does not spill out. If you have two rounds left, the clip stays in place. You must push a button to prematurely eject the partial clip. I just grew up shooting the rifle. What do I know?
The reason the M1 makes a poor rifle for high pressure loading is that around 50,000 PSI the op rod bends. I wouldn't say that anything that has eight rounds of .30-06 available rapidly and points like a shotgun is a bad weapon. It has shortcomings for sure, but is far from bad. Remember it wasn't designed to stop DG it was designed to kill people. For it to be pressed into unintended service and then judged harshly is silly.
 

Hoss Delgado

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If you have one round left, the last round extracts and ejects and then the clip comes out. It does not spill out. If you have two rounds left, the clip stays in place. You must push a button to prematurely eject the partial clip. I just grew up shooting the rifle. What do I know?
The reason the M1 makes a poor rifle for high pressure loading is that around 50,000 PSI the op rod bends. I wouldn't say that anything that has eight rounds of .30-06 available rapidly and points like a shotgun is a bad weapon. It has shortcomings for sure, but is far from bad. Remember it wasn't designed to stop DG it was designed to kill people. For it to be pressed into unintended service and then judged harshly is silly.
I should have elaborated on my statement. Mike LaGrange used an M1 Garand to cull elephants , but with special loads. Art Alphin of A- Square loaded Mike 1000 plus rounds of .30-06 A Square Monolithic meplat brass Solids in 220 gr weight . He popped those tuskers like shooting fish in a barrel :).
Of course , l read his book years ago. Anyone with more knowledge about this gentleman can chip in
 

Wyatt Smith

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I stand corrected, Forrest I got mine out and played with it. I knew a M1 fan would respond to that and I ment no offense. Still I would rather carry an 03 or Mauser into combat than a garand facing man or beast. I own an M1 and enjoy shooting it for nostalgia reasons, but I’m a bolt action man so I could be biased
 

bruce moulds

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forrest,
it was like all military rifles, designed to wound people.
wounded people take up more resources.
bruce.
 

Forrest Halley

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forrest,
it was like all military rifles, designed to wound people.
wounded people take up more resources.
bruce.
No. Flat out. That was not the premise behind it. It was redesigned to use existing ammunition surpluses. The .276 round had something in mind like that, but was not adopted due to the surplus of .30 on hand. Intended for increased rate of fire over a bolt action to build up a squad base of fire. We're not the Japanese with wooden bullets.

And I am not a fan of the M1 or sticking up for anything. I just have a working familiarity. I'm a gun guy that enjoys many different types and calibers far too much to play a favorite. If I were to play a favorite from that era, it would be to lament that the optimization of the BAR 1918 was not realized until 100 years later. A lighter receiver, a larger magazine and a compensator would have brought it beyond the Bren. I think the HCAR is a neat idea and should also have been made in a shortened and lightened 1918 style.
 

Aussie_Hunter

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Wow this topic really got a few people going huh??? haha Plenty of strong opinions.
@TOBY458 just buy one of each 470, 458, 500 and 505. Great excuse to buy new rifles and then you have yourself covered across the board haha
 

Aussie_Hunter

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Ever since I returned from my last trip to Africa, I've been mulling over the whole stopping rifle idea in my head. I must admit that when I was on the trail of my wounded Cape Buffalo, I would've really liked to have had something larger than my 375 in my hands. I had a 416 back at camp, but we had no time to retrieve it. (I wish I had just used the 416 in the first place).

That said, I do see the validity of a client bringing along two rifles with two very different purposes. One rifle that's suited for PG and DG hunting. A 375 or 416 would fill this order, but a 416 just seems too much of a good thing when it comes to game the size of Impala, or Blesbuck. So that leaves us with a 375 for the most part. I believe the 375 has proven itself plenty capable as a dual purpose cartridge, and as a reasonably effective Cape Buffalo cartridge, for a client.
The other rifle would be for following up dangerous game that has been wounded, or used for Buffalo hunting in thick vegetation, where the shots are close. This rifle would be taken along on all hunts. At the very least, in the truck.
So the question is, how much REAL difference in stopping power is there between the various 458/470 caliber rifles vs something like a 500 Jeffrey, 505 Gibbs or 500 Nitro?
@TOBY458 all though I added a half smart comment to this thread a few minutes ago I thought I would also add a more serious comment. Some of us are fairly spoiled when it comes to hunting big stuff in Australia and all though what we hunt over here may not be Cape Buffalo, the animals are just as big and in a lot of cases bigger than Cape Buffalo and not always but again in many cases have the same nasty temperament.

I have been hunting scrub bulls in some fairly thick country and really thick rivers for quite some time now with my 375H&H and I am doing this hunting with no back up from a PH with a bigger calibre rifle. I haven't yet experienced a full charge but I have been in some fairly sticky situations with some wounded bulls and all though my 375H&H has done me proud each and every time, at the time when things started to get sketchy I had wished I was holding a bigger rifle. So I have decided to up the ante with a 458 Lott (which you have probably already seen in other comments as I won't shut up about it. Not really sorry either as I am super excited about my new acquisition!) For what it's worth from an Aussie that hunts big horned animals on his own fairly often or my only back up being my mate carrying a 308, I really think anything you have mentioned above would suit you just fine in a dire situation, again I have gone with the 458 Lott as my so called "stopper". To give you an idea on what this "stopper" will be stopping see below a photo (still photo taken from Gopro footage) of a big boy I put down with my 375H&H at only about 30m, he was wounded and all though like I said not at full charge he was getting up out of the grass to do so, I was just quicker to the trigger than he was on this occasion and smacked him with a couple of more A-frames putting him back down fairly quickly. But as I mentioned above when it was happening the 375H&H did start to feel a bit small and I was thinking I wish I had a bigger rifle.

upload_2020-2-4_19-47-59.png
 

Nhoro

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I should have elaborated on my statement. Mike LaGrange used an M1 Garand to cull elephants , but with special loads. Art Alphin of A- Square loaded Mike 1000 plus rounds of .30-06 A Square Monolithic meplat brass Solids in 220 gr weight . He popped those tuskers like shooting fish in a barrel :).
Of course , l read his book years ago. Anyone with more knowledge about this gentleman can chip in
Do you have any documentation/backup for this ?I have discussed the culling with a few old hands who were involved, right from the so called tsetse control into the mechanised and well oiled culling into the 80s. They did use all sorts of old military ammo with the 303 being used in early year on non dangerous game and then 7.62 nato (.308) being used in FN military rifles (used in semi auto mode but often full auto military issue) They had big stoppers available in the form of 458 win mag in a variety of actions-pretty much all of them bolt actions either controlled feed or a few push feed. They had gun bearer/reloaders and were very efficent. I dont know of any M1 garands. The small calibres were only use on females and youngsters. Large females and bigger bulls were dropped with 458 win mag. Remember, this was about efficiency and getting a necessary and unpleasant task done. Following wounded animal was costly in time and money as well as dangerous.
 

Major Khan

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Do you have any documentation/backup for this ?I have discussed the culling with a few old hands who were involved, right from the so called tsetse control into the mechanised and well oiled culling into the 80s. They did use all sorts of old military ammo with the 303 being used in early year on non dangerous game and then 7.62 nato (.308) being used in FN military rifles (used in semi auto mode but often full auto military issue) They had big stoppers available in the form of 458 win mag in a variety of actions-pretty much all of them bolt actions either controlled feed or a few push feed. They had gun bearer/reloaders and were very efficent. I dont know of any M1 garands. The small calibres were only use on females and youngsters. Large females and bigger bulls were dropped with 458 win mag. Remember, this was about efficiency and getting a necessary and unpleasant task done. Following wounded animal was costly in time and money as well as dangerous.
I agree with you , Nhoro. I have Mr. LaGrange's book " Ballistics in Perspective . " It is a very good book . I purchased it , because l wanted to know everything about shooting elephants .
Mr. LaGrange never used a .30-06 Springfield calibre M1 Garand semi automatic rifle ( as per his book .)
His department was issued with FN Mauser bolt rifles , chambered in .458 Winche magnum and pre 64 Winchester Model 70 bolt rifles chambered in .375 Holland & Holland magnum. Mr. LaGrange also used a .470 Nitro Express calibre double barreled side by side rifle , during the culls , but does not mention whether it was a department issued weapon or his personal rifle .
For ordinary cow elephants , calves and sub mature elephants , the cullers used department issued FN Fal battle rifles , chambered in 7.62 NATO . The ammunition used was ordinary solid metal covered pointed military surplus ammunition , weighing 146 grains.
For the biggest matriarch cow elephants , Mr. LaGrange used the department issued .458 Winchester magnum calibre FN Mauser bolt rifle . The ammunition was 500 grain Hornady solid metal covered bullets , loaded by A Square .
For the biggest bull elephants , Mr. Lagrange preferred to use the .470 Nitro Express double barreled side by side rifle , built by John Rigby and Co.
The ammunition used for this , was solid metal covered 500 grain bullets , loaded by a company named " Bell " . However , the ammunition for this weapon was already discontinued during the time at which the culling occurred , so Mr. Lagrange used it sparingly only for the biggest bull elephants .

I have also read about another elephant culler named Clem Coetzee who slew 16,000 African elephants . He was fond of using a Soviet Dragunov sniper rifle , chambered in 7.62 × 54 Rimmed , using armour piercing military surplus ammunition. He used this weapon for culling cow and calf elephants.
For the big bull elephants , he preferred using a .465 Holland & Holland magnum calibre double barreled side by side rifle and 480 grain solid metal covered bullets . I am speculating that the ammunition used must have been old stocks of ICI Kynoch cartridges , because Kynoch was no longer producing cartridges , during the time of the culls .

@Hoss Delgado , l am also indeed curious where you heard about .30-06 Springfield calibre M1 Garands being used for culling African elephants . I frequently try to read about the elephant culls of the 1980s as much as possible , but l have never come across any information like this either.
 

rookhawk

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Two things to remember:

1.) Africa made do with junk weapons in the wrong caliber for most of history.

2.) Until just recently, even the non-junk calibers really had terrible ammo, a problem that doesn't exist for a safari hunter today.

"Stopping" rounds in the title calibers of this thread are 100% sufficient with a modern hydro solid to stop anything on the planet instantly in a charge with a spine or brain shot.

The love of the FN "FAL" by the Africans is an irrational one because it was a mediocre weapon in a lethargic (.308) caliber, but they had them, they were military trained to use them, and they had limitless supplies of FMJ bullets for them.

A .375HH with a great modern hydro solid is going to be a better stopper than a .500 Jeff shooting a 1930s ICI / Kynoch bullet. Things have become that much better.

If you want more gun for your hunts, a 404J or .416R can be a fine civilian hunting gun that can stop any charge with a solid in the second-shot position.
 

kurpfalzjäger

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A .375HH with a great modern hydro solid is going to be a better stopper than a .500 Jeff shooting a 1930s ICI / Kynoch bullet. Things have become that much better.

It may be that the concepts are changing and new technologies are also being added , including the Hydro Solid bullets of which I also heard wonderful things.

However , many of us are older and from a school where bullets have to look like bullets , spitzer or round nose !:)
 

rookhawk

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It may be that the concepts are changing and new technologies are also being added , including the Hydro Solid bullets of which I also heard wonderful things.

However , many of us are older and from a school where bullets have to look like bullets , spitzer or round nose !:)

well, you’ll need to get with the times because your bullets no longer exist, they are extinct.

In the olden days, a “solid” was a lead slug that had a steel jacket applied in the cup-and-core method but it was applied point-to-tail. In this case, the meplat at the back of the bullet had a hole in it where you’d see lead. Then a copper gilding metal was applied to the bullet so it wouldn’t damage the rifling during engraving/firing.

those do not exist anymore. Anywhere. The tooling isn’t running with any brand, although certainly most softs are made by that process, but without steel and they apply the jackets heel-to-nose with an exposed lead tip.

today, solids are monolithic, usually brass, copper, or a similar alloy. Hydro static shock happens with all of them, allow though a hollow point (non-expanding) creates a cavitation wave causing more sheer damage than a rounded nose.

by the way, the old solids failed because the lead would oooze out of the meplat and bend, thus changing course. That’s why mono metal solids exist now.
 

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