.450 No. 2 BP

Discussion in 'Muzzleloaders & Black Powder' started by HWL, Jul 10, 2019.

  1. HWL

    HWL AH Fanatic

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    I bought that damned thing because I could not withstand....

    It is an belgian made Drilling in .450 N0. 2 BP, 12 ga.,12 ga.

    Does anyone have informations about a .450 N0.2 BP.

    I have never heard about that cartridge, but the muzzle looks impressive.

    Where to get ammo, cases, bullets, data..... is it good for the big stuff or even the real big stuff?

    329003cc33acdc9949543a444d9d43de5.jpg 33fd185364584b72dce5520e85a7a9ade.jpg 2bcf6792bf4d55d9e2ee1d6b694908468.jpg
     
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  2. Catahoula

    Catahoula AH Enthusiast

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    Can’t help with your questions, but very nice!
     

  3. bruce moulds

    bruce moulds AH Elite

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    the 450/3 1/4" in black powder form was considered to be about the ultimate rifle for red deer sized game.
    the 450 no2 black powder came under the same heading.
    unless you were a 40 calibre fan.
    40 cal b.p. expresses used bullets of better sectional density and ballistic coefficient than the 45s, and each calibre had its exponents.
    the black lowder cartridges were generally "express" which meant a light bullet with a big charge in an attempt to increase point blank range.
    45 cal black powder guns were not dangerous game killers.
    if you load, and the barrel has the twist for, big game bullets in those guns, black powder will only give them about 1300 fps.
    bruce.
     

  4. bruce moulds

    bruce moulds AH Elite

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    further to the above.
    the fact that the same rounds loaded with smokeless powder suddenly turned deer rifles into elephant killers came as quite a shock in the day.
    this is a quantum leap in killing power.
    bruce.
     

  5. bruce moulds

    bruce moulds AH Elite

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    the more I think about this, the more I think the 450 no 2 was a smokeless round.
    the 500/450 was initially a black powder express, followed by smokeless for black express, followed by nitro as a big game killer.
    interested to hear from those who know more.
    and of course the Belgians could well have had a completely different system.
    bruce.
     

  6. HWL

    HWL AH Fanatic

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    I agree...

    But I think, at this time, the belgians produced for the british market

    I still do not have the gun in my hands, so I can not check it.

    But nowhere in literature I found a .450 No. 2 Black Powder!

    I think, it is possible, that the 12 ga. shotgun barrels are black powder and the rifle barrel is nitro.



    HWL
     

  7. bruce moulds

    bruce moulds AH Elite

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    interesting.
    such a gun could have specialized uses.
    how do you make it fire the rifle barrel?
    bruce.
     

  8. HWL

    HWL AH Fanatic

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    The rifle barrel has to be selected with this lever, and fired with the front trigger/right hammer.

    I bought it with Gert Odendaals 1884 black powder hunt in mind.

    2cf40e864295a541433429ad805ba501c.jpg
     
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  9. HWL

    HWL AH Fanatic

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    This looks like ".450 No.2 Express B.P." 2d2fb552c05483750c6243d71e028ad97.jpg
     

  10. bruce moulds

    bruce moulds AH Elite

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    can you establish the twist in the rifle barrel?
    this might give an idea of the bullet wt to suit.
    if it is slow for a 300 - 350 gn bullet, that could suggest a black powder express.
    caution would suggest not firing 450 no2 nitro loads until you know one way or the other.
    whatever it is, it is a nice firearm to have.
    bruce.
     
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  11. HWL

    HWL AH Fanatic

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    I will get the rifle on monday and check the twist trate.

    But what is slow and what is fast for this chartidge?


    HWL
     

  12. bruce moulds

    bruce moulds AH Elite

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    memory says that the nitros with about 480 gn bullets at over 2000 fps had twists around 1 turn in 15".
    300 - 350 gn bullets I cannot recall, but do know that slower than 1 turn in 20" is more than adequate.
    bruce.
     

  13. HWL

    HWL AH Fanatic

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    I found another suspicious..... .500/.450 Westley Richards No.2 Musket

    Was a black powder cartridge always...

    HWL
     
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  14. Red Leg

    Red Leg AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

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    The proof marks will clearly tell you whether black powder or nitro. I’m guessing BP, though it does appear to be a fluid steel gun. The only way to be sure of the actual rifle caliber, is a chamber cast. Even if markings seem definitive, too often someone has monkeyed with the chamber trying to turn it into something more “modern.” (Fortunately, that is less common in Germany where shade tree gunsmiths aren’t a dime a dozen). Any competent gunsmith can do the chamber cast.

    And as @bruce moulds notes, this would have been a great choice for red stag and boar on the Continent. One sees occasional Belgian and Suhl built drillings of this period built for the American market in 12x12x38-55.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019

  15. bruce moulds

    bruce moulds AH Elite

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    the plot thickens.
    and there was a no 1 musket that shot a light bullet and the no 2 shot a heavier bullet.
    there is a guy from Belgium called gert who shoots the no 2 at long range with black powder.
    he can be found on british militaria forum, and Shiloh forum.
    can't remember what name he goes by, but will try to find out.
    bruce.
     

  16. bruce moulds

    bruce moulds AH Elite

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    just remember, he goes by martinibelgian.
    you could contact him and he is very helpful.
    bruce.
     

  17. HWL

    HWL AH Fanatic

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    First of all, my gunsmith will make a chamber cast.

    I have drawings of .450 No.2 3 1/2 " NE and .500/450 No.2 BP Musket.

    Should it be a nitro, I would like it to challenge a buffalo with, the very traditional way.

    A black powder should be perfect for the next 1884 black powder hunt...

    HWL
     

  18. HWL

    HWL AH Fanatic

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    ...think this means lead bullet and black powder....
    Drilling450_2.jpg Drilling 450_1.jpg
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2019

  19. HWL

    HWL AH Fanatic

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    Figured out "Lion" and "P.V" is nitro proof, .450 Nitro Express 3 1/4" fit in chamber.....

    Nontheless, I will make a chamber cast.


    HWL
     
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  20. HWL

    HWL AH Fanatic

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    Drilling back from proofhouse,.... this guys say, this is a .450 3 1/4" Nitro Express and 12 3/4" (70mm) shotgun barrels.

    All barrels with nitro proof marks.

    Last pic, .450 Nitro Express 3 1/4" compared to our beloved "German standard drilling cartridge" 7x57R

    DSC03628.JPG DSC03629.JPG DSC03627.JPG DSC03625.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019

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