450 Marlin in a bolt action rifle?

[AZDAVE]

Are there a ton of options on what to build? Oh Yea. The primary and driving comment is "I want to build a unusual rifle and have a commercial Mauser action" then comes "would it be adequate for DG". Knowing that I will for now always hunt my DG with a double take the following comment with a grain of salt.

Lets look at the standard energy, momentum and TKO figures for the 416 Rigby at factory levels and the results I have achieved in my short action 450 with 400/405gr bullets. 416 Rigby, 400 gr at 2300 FPS. 4697 lbs muzzle engery, momentum 131, TKO 54. 450 marlin 400gr at 2050 fps, 3778 lbs muzzle energy, momentum 118, TKO 54. ( for reference those are the same fps as a 450/400 hornaday factory load)

Sectional density is .458 400gr lags behind the recommended DG bullet for best penetration. There has been a number of folks that have taken the big 5 with a 45/70 lever gun with less than this. Is there better rounds yes. But in the hands of a good shot that is steady Cape buff at 30 yards I do believe that it would go through the shoulder into the vitals and the soft skin DG would work. Would I feel better with a 470-577 double in my hands most definatly! However back to my grain of salt comment.

If someone wants to donate a cape buff cow or lion hunt for testing of the 450Marlin I would be will to test this and post results on how my rifle performed

 

[Red Leg]

Are there a ton of options on what to build? Oh Yea. The primary and driving comment is "I want to build a unusual rifle and have a commercial Mauser action" then comes "would it be adequate for DG". Knowing that I will for now always hunt my DG with a double take the following comment with a grain of salt.

Lets look at the standard energy, momentum and TKO figures for the 416 Rigby at factory levels and the results I have achieved in my short action 450 with 400/405gr bullets. 416 Rigby, 400 gr at 2300 FPS. 4697 lbs muzzle engery, momentum 131, TKO 54. 450 marlin 400gr at 2050 fps, 3778 lbs muzzle energy, momentum 118, TKO 54. ( for reference those are the same fps as a 450/400 hornaday factory load)

Sectional density is .458 400gr lags behind the recommended DG bullet for best penetration. There has been a number of folks that have taken the big 5 with a 45/70 lever gun with less than this. Is there better rounds yes. But in the hands of a good shot that is steady Cape buff at 30 yards I do believe that it would go through the shoulder into the vitals and the soft skin DG would work. Would I feel better with a 470-577 double in my hands most definatly! However back to my grain of salt comment.

If someone wants to donate a cape buff cow or lion hunt for testing of the 450Marlin I would be will to test this and post results on how my rifle performed

Just love the idea of someone with zero DG experience poking a hole in a bull buff with a marginal caliber. PH’s don’t get paid enough.

 

[Boyd Brooks]

here is a pic or the 450 marlin Bolt gunView attachment 222193

Great looking tool, nice wood and I really like the 1/4 rib. Looks like an African rifle!

 

[AZDAVE]

@Red Leg Without wanting to start a fight I have shot a buff with my 450NE double on a proper spot and stalk tracking safari and 23 years in the Army, so I have a very good idea of what DG is. Plus I quantified "But in the hands of a good shot that is steady" Not recommending that someone with no experience use a marginal round. (like say a 44MAG pistol for elephant! been done but not the best tool for the job)

My last comment on the lion or buff donated hunt was just my subtle attempt at humor nothing more

 

[Boyd Brooks]

AZDAVE and Red Leg, I did not want to start anything! A 400gr slug traveling at 2400 feet per second does not know wether it was fired from a 416 Rigby, a 416 Rem mag or a 416 Taylor they will all have the same energy. The truth is if you hit anything in the foot it will not be fatal!Shot placement is paramount know matter what you shoot at!It was just a question!

 

[AZDAVE]

No problem. I was tying to use some humor and just could have worded my comments better. The one thing about this forum I really like is that everyone likes and respects each other opinions. So if I stepped on anyone's toes I am sorry.

@Boyd Brooks if you want to build a different and interesting rifle go for it as this is a fun group of gun cranks that appreciate to normal and the interesting rifles. The 450 would be a great anything in North america rifle but very marginal on the big stuff in Africa.

 

[Boyd Brooks]

No problem. I was tying to use some humor and just could have worded my comments better. The one thing about this forum I really like is that everyone likes and respects each other opinions. So if I stepped on anyone's toes I am sorry.

@Boyd Brooks if you want to build a different and interesting rifle go for it as this is a fun group of gun cranks that appreciate to normal and the interesting rifles. The 450 would be a great anything in North america rifle but very marginal on the big stuff in Africa.

Thank you for your feedback. I kind of collect odd rifles already. 308 and 358 Norma mags a 416 Taylor and a 450 Marlin in a lever action Winchester along with some of the more mainstream stuff. As you can see I am fairly new to this site and just didn't want to cause any conflict.Most guys are very passionate about favourite calibers or brands, and I understand that, I am as well!Thank you again.

 

[AZDAVE]

Those are interesting calibers. Like you I built some stuff just because I thought it would be fun, the 450, P14 enfield in 50 Alaskan, Ruger short action 416 Express (350RM necked up to 416) and a 40/60 maynard on a lee enfield. They are just fun to shoot and scratched a itch for something interesting that makes me smile.

If you do decide to build the 450 and your gunsmith doesn't have the reamer, I have one you can borrow.

 

[IvW]

What about the new 400 H&H Magnum?

 

[IvW]

Or a 45-90 Express?

 

[Boyd Brooks]

Those are interesting calibers. Like you I built some stuff just because I thought it would be fun, the 450, P14 enfield in 50 Alaskan, Ruger short action 416 Express (350RM necked up to 416) and a 40/60 maynard on a lee enfield. They are just fun to shoot and scratched a itch for something interesting that makes me smile.

If you do decide to build the 450 and your gunsmith doesn't have the reamer, I have one you can borrow.

Thank you very much. Very kind of you. I am still not set on what I will have built, in the research mode, hence the post.

 

[Boyd Brooks]

IvW, I have a standard commercial Mauser action for my build I don't think the 400 or 45-90 would fit. They are definitely out of the norm choices.

 

[Red Leg]

@Red Leg Without wanting to start a fight I have shot a buff with my 450NE double on a proper spot and stalk tracking safari and 23 years in the Army, so I have a very good idea of what DG is. Plus I quantified "But in the hands of a good shot that is steady" Not recommending that someone with no experience use a marginal round. (like say a 44MAG pistol for elephant! been done but not the best tool for the job)

My last comment on the lion or buff donated hunt was just my subtle attempt at humor nothing more

I obviously misread your post or you misinterpreted mine - I have no issue with a 450 NE on buff (assuming the shooter knows what he is doing with it) - I have huge issues with pistol bullets from a 450 Marlin or real bullets from the same with insufficient velocity. I also think it irresponsible to encourage any first time DG hunter to approach that trip with an inadequate firearm.

I think we can both benefit from not trying to empress each other with our time in combat arms.

 

[Red Leg]

AZDAVE and Red Leg, I did not want to start anything! A 400gr slug traveling at 2400 feet per second does not know wether it was fired from a 416 Rigby, a 416 Rem mag or a 416 Taylor they will all have the same energy. The truth is if you hit anything in the foot it will not be fatal!Shot placement is paramount know matter what you shoot at!It was just a question!

Sigh, I have no issue with a 400 gr premium bullet at 2400 feet per second - I do have an issue with the a pistol bullet moving maybe at 2000 from the muzzle which is essentially what the Marlin is in its factory guise.

 

[sierraone]

No problem. I was tying to use some humor and just could have worded my comments better. The one thing about this forum I really like is that everyone likes and respects each other opinions. So if I stepped on anyone's toes I am sorry.

@Boyd Brooks if you want to build a different and interesting rifle go for it as this is a fun group of gun cranks that appreciate to normal and the interesting rifles. The 450 would be a great anything in North america rifle but very marginal on the big stuff in Africa.

I confirm your gun crankiness as I have been a direct beneficiary of such crankiness!

 

[1dirthawker]

boyd brooks,

i agree a 416 taylor would make a slightly different and very cool rifle. i would load it to around 2300 fps 400 grain bullets (404 jeff ballistics) and then go out and shoot everything!

 

[Boyd Brooks]

boyd brooks,

i agree a 416 taylor would make a slightly different and very cool rifle. i would load it to around 2300 fps 400 grain bullets (404 jeff ballistics) and then go out and shoot everything![/QUOTE
Thanks, I would agree!

 

[crs]

as AZdave said, "for reference those are the same fps as a 450/400 hornaday factory load".

And for further reference, just under the .411 Woodleigh 400 grain load from my .405 WCF at 2076 fps MV from my Miroku/Winchester 1895 24 inch barrel. See it leaning against the buff in the pic to the left?

Dave's Simson .405 double can use the same ammo if he gets tired of 300 grain bullets. The he can sell his 450/400 double an use the $$ for hunts.

 

[AZDAVE]

@Red Leg hey no problems I could have worded my response better. So how about when I am in africa in May the first night under the southern cross beside the fire I toast all your friends and all mine that we have lost in harms way? and then toast a couple lucky old cranky guys, knowing that we had a couple guardian angels watching over us

 

[Red Leg]

@Red Leg hey no problems I could have worded my response better. So how about when I am in africa in May the first night under the southern cross beside the fire I toast all your friends and all mine that we have lost in harms way? and then toast a couple lucky old cranky guys, knowing that we had a couple guardian angels watching over us

Absent comrades brother - absent comrades. I’ll do the same for you and them in late June.