450 Majoor, 460 Short A Square, 450 Vincent Short anyone?

bassasdaindia

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some photos taken with my cell phone of the .450
Majoor.
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CAustin

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@bassasdaindia thank you for sharing the pictures. Beautiful rifle.
 

Daga Boy

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The "short fat" .458's are quite popular over here. The .458 Sabi in particular, but its lead over the African has probably hot a lot to do with the fact that Sabi is a custom rifle builder whereas pierre vd walt isn't . The shorter cartridges permit more compact, better handling rifles. With any of these calibers you have to keep the weight over about 9 or 10lbs as recoil is unmanageable with lighter platforms save for snap shooting.
 

Daga Boy

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They are also a lot cheaper to build as they dont require magnum length actions
 

Hoss Delgado

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Among Professional Hunters or Veteran African Hunters , l see two calibers which are LOATHED and l never really understood why .
One would be the .460 Weatherby Magnum.
The other would be the .425 Westley Richards Magnum .
I had a chance to fire a .460 Weatherby a friend of mine used to own. It's a beast in terms of RAW power . The .425 WR , l have never used . But a guy in Australia who l hunted with , has one on an Enfield action . He would use handloads and Woodleigh 410 grain full metal jacket round nose solids at 2150 fps.
 

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458vs 460

Talked to a gentleman who went to Africa with a 460 and was advised to download the cartridge due to fear of TOO much penetration and the risk involved to other cape buffalo...bullets do not pass straight thru and can take some pretty radical paths. I own a 458Lott but almost excusively shoot 458 WM ammo thru it.......A-square makes some great round for it...I personally LOVE shooting my 470 Capstick.....this cartridge will fit a 458/375 size action and give you 6000+me with 500 grain bullets at max specs......I download it with soft points to deer level specs......all you need is a new barrell on most magnum actions......basically a 470 NE bolt action..........gotta love that:)
I was curious as to the brand of rifle your .458 Lott is, and how do the .458WM cycle through it and the accuracy with the .458WM? Thanks!
 

Desperatezulu

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Among Professional Hunters or Veteran African Hunters , l see two calibers which are LOATHED and l never really understood why .
One would be the .460 Weatherby Magnum.
The other would be the .425 Westley Richards Magnum .
I had a chance to fire a .460 Weatherby a friend of mine used to own. It's a beast in terms of RAW power . The .425 WR , l have never used . But a guy in Australia who l hunted with , has one on an Enfield action . He would use handloads and Woodleigh 410 grain full metal jacket round nose solids at 2150 fps.
460 is generally not appreciated because often the owner that shows up with it cannot shoot it well, and either flinches, or is busy working on a world-class flinch. Coupled with many 460 rifles coming with brakes, which are not PH pleasers either.
The cliché is that 460s are bought by wealthy but clueless hunters who want the biggest cannon money can buy for their DG hunt...and arrive never having practiced with the gun and discover they can't shoot worth a damn with it.

Never heard of anyone being too critical about the 425WR - the old feeding BS stories aside. I would think any PH would be happy to guide a hunter using a 425 that could shoot it well. No doubts about its performance on DG.

As the typical advice goes - the hunter should bring the biggest caliber that he can comfortably shoot WELL with, and have it loaded with decent/premium bullets. I think the caliber choice is secondary to this.
 

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460 is generally not appreciated because often the owner that shows up with it cannot shoot it well, and either flinches, or is busy working on a world-class flinch. Coupled with many 460 rifles coming with brakes, which are not PH pleasers either.
The cliché is that 460s are bought by wealthy but clueless hunters who want the biggest cannon money can buy for their DG hunt...and arrive never having practiced with the gun and discover they can't shoot worth a damn with it.

Never heard of anyone being too critical about the 425WR - the old feeding BS stories aside. I would think any PH would be happy to guide a hunter using a 425 that could shoot it well. No doubts about its performance on DG.

As the typical advice goes - the hunter should bring the biggest caliber that he can comfortably shoot WELL with, and have it loaded with decent/premium bullets. I think the caliber choice is secondary to this.
Desperatezulu , thank you for your insighful response. Coincidentally enough , l was having a chat with my friend today ( the one who lives in Australia and owns a .425 WR ) . We talked for a while about the .425 WR. Apparently , when Westley Richards first introduced this rifle during the golden age of hunting , the rifle was regulated for 2350 fps velocity. The rifles which Westley Richards makes now are regulated for a lower 2150 fps velocity. Also , there is only ONE brand who makes loaded ammunition for this Calibre : Kynoch. And Kynoch only makes soft nosed ammunition for the .425 Westley Richards. If you want solids ( which is necessary for Elephant and occasionally Buffalo ) , then your only option is to hand load , using Woodleigh 410 grain FMJ round nose bullets. According to Woodleigh , these 410 grain round nose fmj bullets should be loaded to a maximum velocity of 2150 .
I do know that Famous Professional Hunter , Robin Hurt owns a .425 Westley Richards and LOVES it. Hopefully , when l next go to Australia , l can fire off a few rounds from it.
 

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There is currently a .460 A-Square short for sale on GunBroker. Item # 805058328.
 

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I do not know anyone who uses a 460 Weatherby and would not even consider one. Just pick one up and you will understand why. Its a massive rifle and has to be in order to (semi) tame the recoil. I once met someone who was selling his after one hunt. He shot an elephant. After the first shot it apparently just sort of stood around. He eventually shot it about ten times before it eventually fell over. He told me that from about the third shot he got a "white out" every time he pulled the trigger, that his nose started bleeding after about the sixth shot and that he was dazed and disoriented and had a sever headache after the episode (concussion). One is simply better off using a less severe calibre and getting a bit closer if needs be.
425WR was not popular because of feeding problems - apparently only on cheaper rifles. The calibre itself performs well though and would probably be popular if someone were to introduce it as a standard model in an affordable rifle. I have actually been tossing about the idea of building a .423 wildcat using a .458WM case. I imagine that performance would be similar to a .416 Taylor, but probably with a bit more velocity and obviously a bigger(which is excellent) permanent wound channel. the KO factor would also be a bit higher. Just a thought at this stage.
 

Hoss Delgado

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I do not know anyone who uses a 460 Weatherby and would not even consider one. Just pick one up and you will understand why. Its a massive rifle and has to be in order to (semi) tame the recoil. I once met someone who was selling his after one hunt. He shot an elephant. After the first shot it apparently just sort of stood around. He eventually shot it about ten times before it eventually fell over. He told me that from about the third shot he got a "white out" every time he pulled the trigger, that his nose started bleeding after about the sixth shot and that he was dazed and disoriented and had a sever headache after the episode (concussion). One is simply better off using a less severe calibre and getting a bit closer if needs be.
425WR was not popular because of feeding problems - apparently only on cheaper rifles. The calibre itself performs well though and would probably be popular if someone were to introduce it as a standard model in an affordable rifle. I have actually been tossing about the idea of building a .423 wildcat using a .458WM case. I imagine that performance would be similar to a .416 Taylor, but probably with a bit more velocity and obviously a bigger(which is excellent) permanent wound channel. the KO factor would also be a bit higher. Just a thought at this stage.
Daga Boy , l agree with almost everything you say. I have fired a .460 Weatherby Mark V one day 3 times. Recoil is pretty severe but not UNBEARABLE ( to me anyway , but the gun had a muzzle brake ). A buddy of mine here in Texas , used to have one and took a brown bear with it. Eventually he swapped it for a .458 Lott. To me , the recoil of the gun ( while harsh ) wasn't the main thing l disliked about it. I noticed that the Weatherby Mark V had a habit of jarring the magazine floor plate open almost every time a shot was fired , dumping the 3 remaining cartridges onto the shooters feet. This happened once when we were shooting feral hogs . If it happened while he was shooting at elephant or buffalo , he would probably die .
 

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They are also a lot cheaper to build as they dont require magnum length actions
After reading a lot of your responses to many African rifle subjects, I take it you don't care for the magnum actioned rifle. But, would you know the difference between a CZ-ZKK602 and a CZ550? Also, would you prefer say a .416 Ruger rifle in a shorter, lighter rifle? Thanks!
 

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The CZ550 long version is the modern version of the old ZKK602. Basically the same ting except that the 602 has a straight trigger whereas the 550 has a normal curved trigger. (Both have the push forward set feature which is popular in Europe). I don't think the 602's came with the Bavarian stock option; however I haven't seen a 602 with a factory stock for a long time so can't be certain.
Magnum length actions make for rather cumbersome rifles, which is not ideal for close up work , especially in thick bush. What you really want for a back up rifle is something handy which points like a shotgun as you frequently won't have time to aim deliberately. The rifle should also be as short as reasonably possible to avoid snagging on bushes.
The problem can be addressed to an extent)by shortening the barrel , and many people do this to their .375H&H's. .458 Lotts or 450 Rigbys; but the package is still not as handy as one based on a standard length action (with similar barrel length).
The .458 Sabi (based on the 500 Jeffrey cartridge) is a good option for someone wanting a really good back up/DG bolt action rifle in .458 cal. So is the (.404 based) .458 African. These rounds are in the same performance category as the A square 460 short but brass is easier to obtain or form as the parent cases are common.
.416 Ruger is gaining in acceptance here. The guide gun in particular is very nice for the bush; however there is a difference between a 400grn .416 projectile and a 500 or 550grn .458 projectile going at similar speeds. .416 is a better allrounder, but bigger = better when things get close up and personal.
Talking "close", I get the impression from these threads that many "foreign" hunters do not appreciate just how close "close" can be. With the exception of elephant, which may attack from a quite a distance, a charge is typically a less than 20m affair, and even then you may only be able to see the animal when it is virtually on top of you. In fact hunters have been seriously injured and even killed by "dead" animals which have collapsed on them.
 

Hoss Delgado

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The CZ550 long version is the modern version of the old ZKK602. Basically the same ting except that the 602 has a straight trigger whereas the 550 has a normal curved trigger. (Both have the push forward set feature which is popular in Europe). I don't think the 602's came with the Bavarian stock option; however I haven't seen a 602 with a factory stock for a long time so can't be certain.
Magnum length actions make for rather cumbersome rifles, which is not ideal for close up work , especially in thick bush. What you really want for a back up rifle is something handy which points like a shotgun as you frequently won't have time to aim deliberately. The rifle should also be as short as reasonably possible to avoid snagging on bushes.
The problem can be addressed to an extent)by shortening the barrel , and many people do this to their .375H&H's. .458 Lotts or 450 Rigbys; but the package is still not as handy as one based on a standard length action (with similar barrel length).
The .458 Sabi (based on the 500 Jeffrey cartridge) is a good option for someone wanting a really good back up/DG bolt action rifle in .458 cal. So is the (.404 based) .458 African. These rounds are in the same performance category as the A square 460 short but brass is easier to obtain or form as the parent cases are common.
.416 Ruger is gaining in acceptance here. The guide gun in particular is very nice for the bush; however there is a difference between a 400grn .416 projectile and a 500 or 550grn .458 projectile going at similar speeds. .416 is a better allrounder, but bigger = better when things get close up and personal.
Talking "close", I get the impression from these threads that many "foreign" hunters do not appreciate just how close "close" can be. With the exception of elephant, which may attack from a quite a distance, a charge is typically a less than 20m affair, and even then you may only be able to see the animal when it is virtually on top of you. In fact hunters have been seriously injured and even killed by "dead" animals which have collapsed on them.
Here , Daga Boy. I have catalogue pictures of the original ZKK Series.
Screenshot_20190713-234850.png
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Screenshot_20190713-234859.png
 

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Thanks. As I remembered - straight top comb rather than humped.
My own 602 is now sporting a 550 humpback stock with double cross bolts, the synthetic stock having collapsed.
 

Hoss Delgado

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Thanks. As I remembered - straight top comb rather than humped.
My own 602 is now sporting a 550 humpback stock with double cross bolts, the synthetic stock having collapsed.
I remember seeing some 602s in .404 Jeffery. But looking at these ads , it hit me now that they must have been rebarrel jobs like my .350 Rigby Magnum ZKK602
 

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The CZ550 long version is the modern version of the old ZKK602. Basically the same ting except that the 602 has a straight trigger whereas the 550 has a normal curved trigger. (Both have the push forward set feature which is popular in Europe). I don't think the 602's came with the Bavarian stock option; however I haven't seen a 602 with a factory stock for a long time so can't be certain.
Magnum length actions make for rather cumbersome rifles, which is not ideal for close up work , especially in thick bush. What you really want for a back up rifle is something handy which points like a shotgun as you frequently won't have time to aim deliberately. The rifle should also be as short as reasonably possible to avoid snagging on bushes.
The problem can be addressed to an extent)by shortening the barrel , and many people do this to their .375H&H's. .458 Lotts or 450 Rigbys; but the package is still not as handy as one based on a standard length action (with similar barrel length).
The .458 Sabi (based on the 500 Jeffrey cartridge) is a good option for someone wanting a really good back up/DG bolt action rifle in .458 cal. So is the (.404 based) .458 African. These rounds are in the same performance category as the A square 460 short but brass is easier to obtain or form as the parent cases are common.
.416 Ruger is gaining in acceptance here. The guide gun in particular is very nice for the bush; however there is a difference between a 400grn .416 projectile and a 500 or 550grn .458 projectile going at similar speeds. .416 is a better allrounder, but bigger = better when things get close up and personal.
Talking "close", I get the impression from these threads that many "foreign" hunters do not appreciate just how close "close" can be. With the exception of elephant, which may attack from a quite a distance, a charge is typically a less than 20m affair, and even then you may only be able to see the animal when it is virtually on top of you. In fact hunters have been seriously injured and even killed by "dead" animals which have collapsed on them.
That is a interesting assertion about magnum length action being unsuitable for a stopping rifle. It will come to some surprise to several generations of professional hunters who protected life and limb with single and double square bridge magnum mauser rifles. I will admit, most rifles based on the big CZ actions can be anything but elegant, but a Rigby or Heym or modern Mauser can be both elegance and pointability personified - particularly if properly stocked and fitted to the owner. And of course if you really want an instinctive package as a stopping rifle, then a quality double is even a better choice. Finally, most clients - foreign or local - are typically ill served by true stopping rifles, whether in a well accepted classic cartridges or the current wave of short wildcats. His job is to get that first bullet exactly where it matters.
 

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I would like to post some observations since the 8 years that have passed that I last posted on this thread.

My 8.5lbs .500 MDM Utra mag, which fires a .50 cal 450gn projectile at 2450fps has accounted for several dozen bovines, or more, of both Asiatic buffalo and feral cattle bulls.
Some of those taken in recreational circumstances whilst hunting alone and others taken in both back-up situations and stopping situations on charges with clients.

I am still here 8 years later to write about it.
I do not have any detached retinas, I have not dislocated my shoulder, nor developed a flinch.

I am constantly amazed that the general population of shooters think that a big bore needs to weigh 12lbs in order for it to be shoot-able.

I am also amazed by the general U.S shooter who I know for a fact shoots his big bore WAY MORE often than I ever do, cannot come to familiarity terms with his big bore unless it weighs more than 10lbs.

I am no more than 5'9" in stature and weigh approximately 180lbs therefore only a light-weight and the only time I shoot my .500 is to check zero of the sights, maybe a few times per year, and then shoot animals with it.
I am no super-man, no questions about that ! and yet I am amazed with the general opinion from shooters regarding the necessary weight required in big bores so that they may be "comfortable" to shoot.

I cannot believe that my personal perception of felt recoil differs so much from seemingly everyone else.
I cannot believe that the luxury of light-weight carrying and shooting rifles is not appreciated by more hunters and shooters other than me.

I am an obvious minority in the big bore world.
 

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Re Red Leg: A magnum length action does not render a rifle unsuitable as a stopper. On the contrary, many serious DG /back up rifles (my own included) are built on double square bridge actions. Its just that rifles built on shorter actions are handier. (Note: If you are over 6' then this is probably neither here nor there but for me the shorter action works better ). And no question about it: the perfect close range DG rifle is a double - The 470 NE is the "gold standard" , but a 500NE works even better. Problem is, they are very pricey
Re Hoss D's comment: I have seen a couple of CZ 550's in .404. Seems to be something they do now and again or only build in limited Q's. Very nice package.
Re Paul T: The load you describe will be in the 5500ft/lb class. This is not an excessively vicious load Basically your energies are the same as .458 lott and well short of any of the really big bangers. With good stock design and fit felt recoil in an 8.5lb rifle should be fine, except off a bench (no big bore is nice to shoot off a bench). Note also that a scope and rings can also make a substantial difference to overall weight, and that even1lb overall can affect felt recall substantially. Ammo in the mag also makes a difference.
 

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