.450/400 or .375 H&H

[Tanks]

.... So is a 450/400 double in competent hands enough for a PH?

Now, we are talking about a PH rifle. For that I think you need to go heavier calibers. I was talking to Dean Kendall with CMS who was the head of PH licensing board for a number of years about big bores. He said he uses a .470 but can tell the difference between it and the .500 NE in regards to impact and stopping power. He also said if he was starting today, he most likely would get a bolt in .500 Jeffrey.

So, I'd say bigger is better. A Krieghoff might be a good compromise in pricing. I know a number of PHs that are happy with it as a working gun. They'd prefer a Heym, but again cost.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Now, we are talking about a PH rifle. For that I think you need to go heavier calibers. I was talking to Dean Kendall with CMS who was the head of PH licensing board for a number of years about big bores. He said he uses a .470 but can tell the difference between it and the .500 NE in regards to impact and stopping power. He also said if he was starting today, he most likely would get a bolt in .500 Jeffrey.

So, I'd say bigger is better. A Krieghoff might be a good compromise in pricing. I know a number of PHs that are happy with it as a working gun. They'd prefer a Heym, but again cost.

Wanted to send you a PM, but it says @Tanks cannot be found!

 

[Tanks]

Wanted to send you a PM, but it says @Tanks cannot be found!

Still have my WhatsApp number?

 

[rookhawk]

Ok, this is an old post but please may I resurrect it with the original question - does anyone have ACTUAL hunting experience of the effects of the 450/400 vs the 375H&H? I know all the data, the point is, is the 450/400 0.410 400 grain bullet that much more effective?

Hi @Kevin Peacocke , I’ve never hunted with a .410 bullet but have hunted with large bores and 375s in equal measure. Echoing what the sages of old like Pondoro Taylor noted, anything over 40 caliber that leaves the muzzle at 2100fps and up, and hits an animal at 1900fps or more, seems to have a significant lethality advantage.

If we assume this commonly repeated wisdom over the past century is true, the big question is “why”.

If I had to assign cause for the consistent observation they just work better, I’d think of the following:

The 375HH and the small bores are relying on speed, or put another way, hydrostatic shock, for part of their killing action. The bullet doesn’t really do all the killing, the gas cavity does a part of the sheer and hyrdostatic damage.

The .40 caliber and up whether 404, 450, 416, 458, or 470, is not really flying fast enough to rely on the method of death the 375 and smaller relies upon, at least in part. The 40s are using concussive force of a big old piece of lead, and punctuating that by making a larger hole that results in faster bleeding and less likelihood the wound can close over with fat instantly.

While not a perfect example because it was a 7mm bullet, my son shot an eland through the heart with his 7x64. It was dead in 200 yards, but literally, not one drop of blood. Not one. The fat and skin plugged that whole instantly. I suspect a 375 is more likely to have that circumstance occur than a true large bore.

This is all conjecture, not science. I’ve not hunted with a 450-400 nor a 404 Jeff but I would not hesitate to do so, they are just overpriced right now as the “in vogue” cartridge. I just bought the “out of fashion” 375s, 416s, and 470s because there is nothing wrong with them and they trade at a fair discount to an equal gun in 404 or 450-400. I’m sure I’ll own them both eventually when the market fad for them dies out and prices align to their respected bretheren Calibers.

 

[IvW]

Thanks to both @Tanks and @crs, you have reinforced what I thought to be the case. The question comes partly in respect to my own impending 450/400 and also in respect of my Godson learner PH. The learners mostly shoot 375 H&H's up to the end of their appyships, but thereafter the aspiration is to move up some. In the expectation of perhaps having to stop DG in a tight spot, would a well shot 450/400 double suffice? Or is a 470 double the minimum for that? 470's are expensive and hard to find here, 450/400's are easier. It is tempting to say "well just start with the 450/400 and move up later", but a tight situation is just as likely to occur in early career as in late, maybe more so. So is a 450/400 double in competent hands enough for a PH?

Everyone needs a 375 H&H and most PH's start with one and keep it if they progress to DG they normally move up to 458 Lott or 470 NE. If elephant becomes part of the equation stepping up to a 500 for a PH is a very good idea 500 Jeff being unbeatable in a bolt and 500 NE in a double. Any bolt action is not a good idea especially for leopard where anything from a 9.3x74R to 500/416 makes a lot of sense even a short barreled 12ga with slugs or a good combination gun.

450/400NE is great but it is marginal for stopping elephants in the thick stuff no matter how good the shooter is so it cannot cover all the bases for a PH who hunts a lot of DG especially elephant.

My DG rifles are

Brno ZKK602 375 H&H original 260-300gr bullets
Brno ZKK602 375 H&H semi custom 24" 340 gr bullets
Brno ZKK602 500 Jeff custom 24" 570gr bullets
12ga SxS sidelock semi custom 24" with Ghost ring Brenneke slugs
12ga/9.3x74R combination 286gr and Brenneke slugs

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Thank you IvW

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Hi @Kevin Peacocke , I’ve never hunted with a .410 bullet but have hunted with large bores and 375s in equal measure. Echoing what the sages of old like Pondoro Taylor noted, anything over 40 caliber that leaves the muzzle at 2100fps and up, and hits an animal at 1900fps or more, seems to have a significant lethality advantage.

If we assume this commonly repeated wisdom over the past century is true, the big question is “why”.

If I had to assign cause for the consistent observation they just work better, I’d think of the following:

The 375HH and the small bores are relying on speed, or put another way, hydrostatic shock, for part of their killing action. The bullet doesn’t really do all the killing, the gas cavity does a part of the sheer and hyrdostatic damage.

The .40 caliber and up whether 404, 450, 416, 458, or 470, is not really flying fast enough to rely on the method of death the 375 and smaller relies upon, at least in part. The 40s are using concussive force of a big old piece of lead, and punctuating that by making a larger hole that results in faster bleeding and less likelihood the wound can close over with fat instantly.

While not a perfect example because it was a 7mm bullet, my son shot an eland through the heart with his 7x64. It was dead in 200 yards, but literally, not one drop of blood. Not one. The fat and skin plugged that whole instantly. I suspect a 375 is more likely to have that circumstance occur than a true large bore.

This is all conjecture, not science. I’ve not hunted with a 450-400 nor a 404 Jeff but I would not hesitate to do so, they are just overpriced right now as the “in vogue” cartridge. I just bought the “out of fashion” 375s, 416s, and 470s because there is nothing wrong with them and they trade at a fair discount to an equal gun in 404 or 450-400. I’m sure I’ll own them both eventually when the market fad for them dies out and prices align to their respected bretheren Calibers.

Thanks Rook!

 

[Pondoro]

I know that two buffs dont say mutch but I and a friend went buffalo hunting a few years ago. I with a Brno ZKK 375HH and my friend with an 450-400 3 1/4. My buff whent about 5 meters after the shot and didn't ever made a deth bellow. My friends buff we chased for about two days after first shot. He used old Kynoch ammo. Guess the bullets were too soft. It was a good hit.

I cannot for the life of me comprehend hunting with 60 year old (ancient..) Kynoch ammo on DG...

 

[Peter Larsson]

Neither do I.

 

[IvW]

If I had the money now I would order a Heym double 89B in 500 NE with a extra set of barrels in 500/416 NE for the cats the latter fitted with QD scope mounts and both with their Ghost ring rear sight rather than express.....
I am selling some safe queens and moving that direction but it may still take a while....

 

[rookhawk]

I cannot for the life of me comprehend hunting with 60 year old (ancient..) Kynoch ammo on DG...

@Pondoro I completely agree with you because I'm risk-averse. It rubs me the wrong way to use vintage ammo on a dangerous game hunt.

On the other hand, a few anecdotes about old Kynoch ammo. Many tales have been sung about 100 year old kynoch ammo being used in moldy, paper boxes and it still fired. (berdan primed with stranded cordite) I had a take-down .318 WR and the ammo it came with from Kynoch was pre-1921. I needed a fired cartridge to figure out a headspace issue because modern handloads were showing headspace issues and the original Kynoch from 100 years ago was chambering better. Indeed, went out and fired two rounds at a target they headspaced perfectly and shot. That's with moldy paper box ammo. In Africa, there are hundreds of leaded, sealed, sardine cans fo Kynoch from 1970s and earlier. Those hermetically sealed cans continue to report virtually no failures because they were sealed for 50-75 years.

Kynoch was the highest quality ammo and when well cared for, it lasts a really long time. However, like you, I would never put my life on the line with old ammo whether 80 year old kynoch or 1980s Winchester.

 

[Pondoro]

@Pondoro I completely agree with you because I'm risk-averse. It rubs me the wrong way to use vintage ammo on a dangerous game hunt.

On the other hand, a few anecdotes about old Kynoch ammo. Many tales have been sung about 100 year old kynoch ammo being used in moldy, paper boxes and it still fired. (berdan primed with stranded cordite) I had a take-down .318 WR and the ammo it came with from Kynoch was pre-1921. I needed a fired cartridge to figure out a headspace issue because modern handloads were showing headspace issues and the original Kynoch from 100 years ago was chambering better. Indeed, went out and fired two rounds at a target they headspaced perfectly and shot. That's with moldy paper box ammo. In Africa, there are hundreds of leaded, sealed, sardine cans fo Kynoch from 1970s and earlier. Those hermetically sealed cans continue to report virtually no failures because they were sealed for 50-75 years.

Kynoch was the highest quality ammo and when well cared for, it lasts a really long time. However, like you, I would never put my life on the line with old ammo whether 80 year old kynoch or 1980s Winchester.

Well I got some pre-WW2 Eley and Kynoch ammo along with a Joseph Lang 450/400 3 1/4 I recently bought...it either went CLICK or CLICK...BANG....primers gone I guess..