416 Rug vs. 458WM?

IronCowboy

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A lot of you fellas have been helping me out on my thread about Ruger Guide Guns, so please forgive my duplication here. That discussion definitely helped me iron out my direction for the 338wm as PGR, but I thought I'd ask specifically about the 416Rug vs. the 458WM in standard length actions.

Cape Buffalo is my focus, probably tying in Lion, and if I can get lucky, Elephant someday (legality pending, of course), and my wife says she wants to take a hippo - which is really out of left field for her. Is Rhino even possible anymore other than dart hunting? I used to love reading about rhino hunts, and thought I had heard that whites had recovered enough to be allowed huntable. So that's the context species...

Inspired by, or maybe scared by, the recent thread about "mid bores, neither fish nor fowl" and the 416's in that class, maybe my mind is changing about the 416Ruger (or remington or Rigby) as an option. I've taken one south american water buffalo with two shots from a 416 ~10yrs ago, but I understand capes go quite substantially larger.

Considering my firearm choice, my other option is a 458win mag. I'll be building off of a standard length action, as such, I'm not able to fit the longer magnum cartridges like the Lott or others.

So, 416 Rug or 458Win?
 

enysse

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I'd go with the .458 Win., it really is a nice caliber for the big stuff.
 

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I will also say WM, since a Lott isn't an option for you due to your action requirements. Might as well get a thumper to go along with the .338.
 

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I would shoot both and see which one I find more comfortable, and shoot most accurate.

The 416 will kill any of the species you mentioned above just as effectively as the WM shot placement on all calibre's are the most important factor, and the one you are most comfortable with will kill the best.

My best always
Ps big game hunts are not done on paper... :) :) :)
 

peras

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Agree with Jaco, shoot both and select the one you enjoy the most.
 

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Geez.....

There Jaco and Pieter go again.... always about shot placement, accuracy, and ability to shoot!!!! ;)
 

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416 Ruger was my choice with no regrets! My plan is to take elephant with it as well. I'm comfortable with this rifle and shoot it well. Jaco is right the shot placement is what matters.
image.jpg
image.jpg
 

IronCowboy

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I would shoot both and see which one I find more comfortable, and shoot most accurate.

The 416 will kill any of the species you mentioned above just as effectively as the WM shot placement on all calibre's are the most important factor, and the one you are most comfortable with will kill the best.

My best always
Ps big game hunts are not done on paper... :) :) :)


Thanks fellas for all of the advice.

I've pretty well settled myself back to a 458WM for the extra bullet weight, but I know ~10-15yrs ago it didn't have a good following. I've also gotten a little "spooked" by these posts on here - by fellas that have more experience on African Game than I'll ever have - that the 416's aren't suitable for super-weight game, which was contrary to what I'd heard/read/experienced in the last 20yrs. The 458WM also has the advantage of availability and I think has more staying power than the 416 Ruger, at least a better bet.

My only concern with jumping on the 458WM is that I'm trying to flesh out whether the Ruger standard length will handle that much recoil - both are 5,000ft.lbs, but energy doesn't mean as much to me as momentum - which the 458WM has in spades. I've been talking to Ruger a bit, apparently the M77 Magnum was the same dia bolt and same thickness/size receiver, just longer than the Long Action. Once I can confirm that, then I'll have no problem dropping the 458 into a long action Hawkeye.

And C'mon Jaco, gotta cut me some slack, hunts are PLANNED on paper ;) I spend a lot more time building and shooting firearms than hunting with them, so that's part of the fun for me. I'm really just trying to clean house in my safes. I've owned over 300 firearms in the last 20yrs, more than 100 of them in safes right now, with a great number of which I just don't care about, but have needed/used/wanted at one point or another. I'm building two rifles for my wife and I right now based on the premise of "beware the man with one rifle" so we can use the same rifles for everything we hunt, no matter what country. I've had 5 "big bore" rifles suitable to this task in the last 15yrs, none of which I loved (all were great, though) - ideally I'll never own another one after this one gets finished. Everything I want, everything I need, nothing I don't.

Thanks again fellas!
 

Tanks

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...
My only concern with jumping on the 458WM is that I'm trying to flesh out whether the Ruger standard length will handle that much recoil - both are 5,000ft.lbs, but energy doesn't mean as much to me as momentum - which the 458WM has in spades. I've been talking to Ruger a bit, apparently the M77 Magnum was the same dia bolt and same thickness/size receiver, just longer than the Long Action. Once I can confirm that, then I'll have no problem dropping the 458 into a long action Hawkeye....!

The B&M Rifles, (link here for 458B&M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/458-B-M.html ) are build on M70 WSM actions. A few people have also built the same rifles using Ruger actions as well. They also exceed 5,000ft.lbs and seem to handle the recoil.
 

IronCowboy

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I looked at those a bit Tanks after seeing some of the posts on here about the B&M mags. I'm still looking to determine whether I think they're suitable, since the 458 and 500 B&M SHORT Mags built on the WSM's seem to be a long stretch behind the 458 & 500 B&M mags built on the RUM's. Still researching though!

The nice part about those is that they're either based on the RUM's or WSM's, both of which I think have more staying power, right now at least, than the 416 or 375 Ruger cases, so that'd be an advantage.
 

Tanks

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Not to be picky. The 458 and 50 B&M Super Shorts are build on the WSSM actions. The regular B&Ms like the 458 B&M is built on the WSM action. But the parent cases in all are based on RUMs. ;) Here is a pic for comparison of cartridge sizes.
671_500_csupload_54618637.jpg
 

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IronCowboy

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So how do you get the .458 B&M ammo into the country?? Since the headstamp won't match the rifle stamping?
 

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I believe it's what ever you like best. Like a red car v white car. I have a 416 ruger and I love it. Great shooting gun. It's just like anything else, I feel it's a matter of personel opinion. Any caliber debate will go on and on. It's like the 9mm v 45 acp. There is no right answer just alot of personel opinions. It a whole lot more to do with shot placement than caliber in my opinion.
 

Tanks

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So how do you get the .458 B&M ammo into the country?? Since the headstamp won't match the rifle stamping?
I have yet to have any customs official inspect the headstamps, though they have counted ammo both ways. That being said, SSK industries stamps the barrel of the rifle 458B&M/300RUM just in case.
 

matt85

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both the 416 Ruger and the 458 WM should kill a grumpy old buffalo extremely well. given the choice between those two cartridges i would choose the 458 WM simply because i dont like proprietary cartridges.

-matt
 

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I would pick the 416 Ruger :)
This is why all these discussions are never ending and fun.
We all have difference taste, preferences and ideas :)

Personally I really see no reason for anything bigger than a .416 other than for fun or for a PH to backup a client.
A .416 has plenty of killing power for anything walking this planet and it has great penetration potential and is for most people with some practice and a well fitting gun possible to shoot very accurately.
Something I consider much more important than so called "stopping power".
 

matt85

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if the he had said 416 RM or 416 Rigby I would have voted for that over the 458 WM (I prefer the Lott). but the 416 Ruger is a proprietary cartridge which means brass only comes from a single source (Hornady). this means you are completely reliant on Hornady's supply of brass to shoot the gun and if they slow production you will be out of luck. if he doesn't hand load then he is even further limited by the proprietary cartridge because the only factory ammunition is Hornady DGS/DGX. if he loves the DGX/DGS bullet then great but if not... better taking up hand loading.

with the 458 WM he at least has some options when it comes to factory ammunition. brass is made by more then just Hornady and in a pinch the brass can be made from 375 H&H brass.

sorry about the rant, just felt the need to voice my dislike of all proprietary cartridges. :oops:

-matt
 

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