416 Remington vs 416 Rigby

[matt85]

the difference between 416 RM and 416 Rigby is jut case capacity which may or may not be important to someone. to me, case capacity is very important and i would prefer the Rigby cartridge. thats because i like to use mono-metal bullets like the 400gr TSX and heavy for caliber bullets like the Woodleigh 450gr bullet. however, i own a 416 RM at the moment because a decent rifle chambered in 416 Rigby is expensive!

if you shoot factory ammunition then the 416 RM and 416 Rigby are ballistic twins, the only difference is the Rigby ammunition costs more.

it was mentioned that the 416 Rigby penetrates better on elephant. this would only apply if you hand load it hotter then standard Rem mag ammunition. otherwise i dont see how the Rigby would out perform the Rem mag with both pushing a 400gr .416" bullet at 2400fps (standard factory load).

-matt

 

[Rick Hill]

hi all , I am just thinking out aloud .

apologies if this question has been asked before and I am repeating it.

I am of the opinion that the Winchester M70 is one the finest value for money rifles available as a factory produced rifle.

what then is the difference between the 416 Rigby and 416 Remington bullet and ballistics in your opinions as Winchester do make the M70 in 416 Remington .

thanks in advance .

Everyone missed the biggest difference. Less powder in the 416 Remington means less jet effect and less recoil for the same 400 grain bullet going 2400 fps! Credit goes to Chuck Hawks for that observation.

Rick

 

[sestoppelman]

But to do that it is working at or near max and the Rigby is just warming up. Like comparing the .458 Win mag to the Lott. To get over 2100 fps the Winnie is close to blowing a gasket but the Lott is yawning.

 

[Shootist43]

If you don't mind using a single shot rifle the Ruger No 1 can be had in 416 Rigby for a reasonable sum, varying from $999.00 on sale recently at Cabelas to $1,300 just about anywhere. Will a 416 Remington do most of what a 416 Rigby can do, YES. Can the Remington do everything a Rigby can do, NO. The difference is why they have "horse races."

 

[Rick Hill]

But to do that it is working at or near max and the Rigby is just warming up. Like comparing the .458 Win mag to the Lott. To get over 2100 fps the Winnie is close to blowing a gasket but the Lott is yawning.

Not a fair comparison as factory loads for the Lott run at 2300 fps. The Lott is what the Winnie never was but should have been. It also smacks you with 70 ft lbs of recoil. The factory loads for the 416 RM and 416 Rigby both push 400 grains at 2400 fps. The reduced jet effect causes less recoil at pressures that a 375 H&H runs at.

From Chuck Hawks:

.416 Rem. Mag. (400 at 2400); 10.0 Lb rifle; recoil foot pounds = 52.9

.416 Rigby (400 at 2400); 10.0 Lb rifle; recoil foot pounds = 58.1

 

[sestoppelman]

According to the Hornady manual which covers both these rounds some comparisons can be made. To get 2400/400 using for instance W760 powder in the Rem, it takes 92.2 grs to achieve it. Since as they often do in manuals there is no direct comparison with that powder in the Rigby lets use H4350 which is not hugely slower than 760. It takes 90.5 grs to get to 2400. Less powder than the Rem with a similar powder. Of course not all comparisons are similar, the Rem does better with medium speed powders and the Rigby with its larger capacity does better with slower powders. Using slower powders it will take more powder to get there obviously so there may be a slight increase in recoil if one can actually tell whether he is being slapped by Mike Tyson or George Foreman! Comparisons can be made to make our preferred round look good. The Rem is good round but slight differences in recoil aside, its not the equal of the Rigby.

 

[Rick Hill]

According to the Hornady manual which covers both these rounds some comparisons can be made. To get 2400/400 using for instance W760 powder in the Rem, it takes 92.2 grs to achieve it. Since as they often do in manuals there is no direct comparison with that powder in the Rigby lets use H4350 which is not hugely slower than 760. It takes 90.5 grs to get to 2400. Less powder than the Rem with a similar powder. Of course not all comparisons are similar, the Rem does better with medium speed powders and the Rigby with its larger capacity does better with slower powders. Using slower powders it will take more powder to get there obviously so there may be a slight increase in recoil if one can actually tell whether he is being slapped by Mike Tyson or George Foreman! Comparisons can be made to make our preferred round look good. The Rem is good round but slight differences in recoil aside, its not the equal of the Rigby.

I was speaking about off the self ammo and published numbers. I agree that the Rigby has more potential options/loads and my 416 is a Rigby made by Roger Biesen. It is a fear no evil rifle. Always like to check and see if thoughts are based on fact.

 

[Paul Homsy]

Not a fair comparison as factory loads for the Lott run at 2300 fps. The Lott is what the Winnie never was but should have been. It also smacks you with 70 ft lbs of recoil. The factory loads for the 416 RM and 416 Rigby both push 400 grains at 2400 fps. The reduced jet effect causes less recoil at pressures that a 375 H&H runs at.

From Chuck Hawks:

.416 Rem. Mag. (400 at 2400); 10.0 Lb rifle; recoil foot pounds = 52.9

.416 Rigby (400 at 2400); 10.0 Lb rifle; recoil foot pounds = 58.1

Actually close to 60 ft lbs for the Rigby. (I made the calculation)
There are 4 elements to calculate recoil, without getting into the actual calculation, these are:

Weight of powder (raw weight, not burn rate)
Weight of projectile
Speed of projectile
Weight of firearm.

A fast powder has a faster recoil impulse and a slow burning powder a slower impulse, however this is perceived subjectively. Recoil pads are all different and do not enter the equation.

The basic effect is as follows.

More powder equals more recoil. The Rigby because of its larger case requires more powder to achieve the same speeds as the Remington. Approximately 20 grains on average which in the same weight rifle translate into 8 pounds of recoil.

It's no secret to anyone that the weight of rifles and that of bullets and their speeds affect recoil differently.

Chuck Hawks is generally correct and takes his figures from generic tables. If he is off he is not far off and the examples he provides are usually in the ball park.

 

[Paul Homsy]

Not a fair comparison as factory loads for the Lott run at 2300 fps. The Lott is what the Winnie never was but should have been. It also smacks you with 70 ft lbs of recoil. The factory loads for the 416 RM and 416 Rigby both push 400 grains at 2400 fps. The reduced jet effect causes less recoil at pressures that a 375 H&H runs at.

From Chuck Hawks:

.416 Rem. Mag. (400 at 2400); 10.0 Lb rifle; recoil foot pounds = 52.9

.416 Rigby (400 at 2400); 10.0 Lb rifle; recoil foot pounds = 58.1

These numbers are correct. I get 52.1 and 57.08 for the Rigby. (pure raw recoil,) calculated, not taken from a table A difference of 10% (not much). Felt recoil in a larger case can feel somewhat different. In general a 15 grains difference in powder charge between these two cartridges to achieve the same results.
With modern powders the 416 Remington can safely be pushed to 2450-2500 fps.
The Rigby can be pushed to a little over 2500 but then recoil is substantially more. The load requires about 23-24 more grains of powder than the Remington.
Remington 58 lbs of free recoil 400 grains at 2500 fps
Rigby 68.7 lbs of free recoil. A difference of 19% more recoil for the Rigby.

Please note: this is in rifles of identical weight which isn't always the case, the Rigby may weigh slightly more and the difference in recoil then shrinks in its favor.

 

[Badboymelvin]

True story. Being gun cranks, we all like to split hairs (I know I do, or at least that I love thinking on the subject and of the relative merits of each), but in the real world, it's a non-issue.

Awesome post

 

[bassasdaindia]

These numbers are correct. I get 52.1 and 57.08 for the Rigby. (pure raw recoil,) calculated, not taken from a table A difference of 10% (not much). Felt recoil in a larger case can feel somewhat different. In general a 15 grains difference in powder charge between these two cartridges to achieve the same results.
With modern powders the 416 Remington can safely be pushed to 2450-2500 fps.
The Rigby can be pushed to a little over 2500 but then recoil is substantially more. The load requires about 23-24 more grains of powder than the Remington.
Remington 58 lbs of free recoil 400 grains at 2500 fps
Rigby 68.7 lbs of free recoil. A difference of 19% more recoil for the Rigby.

Please note: this is in rifles of identical weight which isn't always the case, the Rigby may weigh slightly more and the difference in recoil then shrinks in its favor.

Agreed , i own both Rigby and Remington and although i love my Rigby my Remington is more pleasant to shoot .

 

[Graham Hunter]

I bought mine in May 2011 and it says "Made in USA" on the box too.

I have never, to this day, bought a brand new rifle, ready to go, straight out of the box!
The finish and fitting on the Model 70 Safari Express is superb. From brand new( my 416 rem) you could load a round with the projectile seated in backwards, put it in the magazine, close the bolt. and it would chamber!

I just got my new M70 made in Portugal shoots great. I have 2 friends who have the CZ Rigby and I would say the CZ recoil is less.

 

[Paul Homsy]

The weight of the rifles aside from stock configuration and recoil pads has quite a bit to do with felt recoil. CZs are on the heavy side. It's also possible that CZ installed a kick stop which helps mitigate recoil.

As a general rule, the 416 Rigby produces more recoil than the 416 Remington, however powder burn rates affect felt recoil, not actual recoil. Slower powders at times tend to produce a slightly longer recoil impulse (milliseconds), therefore less sharp, which is perceived subjectively as softer even if that recoil is actually heavier than that of another rifle.

These are just a few of the many factors that enter the equation and aren't as easy as "raw" calculations to quantify. Raw calculations are made at the exclusion of powder burn rate and bore size.

It comes down to what feels best specifically in your hands. All the rest as CT Dolan said a couple of posts above, is a "non-issue".

 

[Paul Homsy]

Just one added note: if your friends reload their 416s, then they can load down slightly and the actual recoil may be lower than the rounds you're shooting in your 416 Remington.