.404 Jeffery vs .458 Winchester Comparison

Ray B

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In reviewing Swift bullet manual I see that if both the 404 & 458 are loaded with 400 grain bullets, the velocities are very similar. The 404 uses more powder, which I guess is due to larger case capacity, and since velocities are similar, I suppose the 404 runs at lower pressure. The 404 being .423" would have an edge on sectional density while the .458" would have slightly more frontal area. So I'm wondering if these cartridges would give similar results- at least on animals with hides of lesser thickness. Experiences?
 

matt85

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for the purpose of hunting PG, either would work with a 400gr bullet. for hunting thick skinned game id want at least 450gr in the 458 WM.

you could even use a 300gr in the 404J and a 350gr in the 458 WM for better PG hunting. i use a 300gr Barnes TSX in my 416 RM for PG and it works wonders with mild recoil at around 2650fps.

-matt
 

Gert Odendaal

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In reviewing Swift bullet manual I see that if both the 404 & 458 are loaded with 400 grain bullets, the velocities are very similar. The 404 uses more powder, which I guess is due to larger case capacity, and since velocities are similar, I suppose the 404 runs at lower pressure. The 404 being .423" would have an edge on sectional density while the .458" would have slightly more frontal area. So I'm wondering if these cartridges would give similar results- at least on animals with hides of lesser thickness. Experiences?
Do yourself a favor ...get hold of a .423 bullet and a .458 bullet ...hold them in your hands ..you will really see a big difference between these two bullets..the .458" is really a lot bigger than the .423" ...no comparison at all...the 404 Jeffery is made for a 400 gn bullet at 2150 f/s ...it is deadly as is...but if you are not sure of your competency with such a load/rifle,,you can go heavier I suppose? As pointed out by a member...450 gn....although shot placement should be your first priority...:D
 

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Do yourself a favor ...get hold of a .423 bullet and a .458 bullet ...hold them in your hands ..you will really see a big difference between these two bullets..the .458" is really a lot bigger than the .423" ...no comparison at all...the 404 Jeffery is made for a 400 gn bullet at 2150 f/s ...it is deadly as is...but if you are not sure of your competency with such a load/rifle,,you can go heavier I suppose? As pointed out by a member...450 gn....although shot placement should be your first priority...:D

The example was made in terms of different bullet weights and comparing the 458WM to the 404 Jeff.

If you are not capable with the "smaller" 404, then I would suggest you stay clear of the 458.....

There is no caliber for a crap shot!
 

PHOENIX PHIL

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In reviewing Swift bullet manual I see that if both the 404 & 458 are loaded with 400 grain bullets, the velocities are very similar. The 404 uses more powder, which I guess is due to larger case capacity, and since velocities are similar, I suppose the 404 runs at lower pressure. The 404 being .423" would have an edge on sectional density while the .458" would have slightly more frontal area. So I'm wondering if these cartridges would give similar results- at least on animals with hides of lesser thickness. Experiences?

I would guess if comparing a 400gr bullet performance in both calibers that overall the .404J would perform better due to the better sectional density. But I'm not sure you could see that depending on the bullet you're using. Use any of the high weight retaining bullets we have available now and I'd guess you'd not see measurable difference. Sometimes more is just more and not necessarily better.

Sectional density is certainly a parameter that has value. But I think many people mistakenly think of this number as a static parameter. It is only static prior to impact with an object that will cause the bullets shape and weight to change. Once the bullet impacts an animal, sectional density becomes quite dynamic. With bullets of older technology the sectional density is going to drop both due to expansion and weight loss. With bullets like the TSX, A-Frame, GSC, Peregrine and North Fork, the sectional density drops due to expansion, but there is almost no drop in this number due to weight loss.

The point being that conventional wisdom regarding "typical" bullet weights such as 500gr for the .458's or 400gr for the .416's and .423 does not in my opinion apply anymore. The true beauty of these newer bullets is that you can go a bit lighter for at least the same if not better performance in comparison to older bullet design. By doing so you experience less recoil. Would I go overboard in the lighter bullet direction? No I wouldn't. I just wouldn't tie myself to thinking I must use a 400gr bullet in the .404J or a 500gr bullet in any of the .458's.
 

Gert Odendaal

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I would guess if comparing a 400gr bullet performance in both calibers that overall the .404J would perform better due to the better sectional density. But I'm not sure you could see that depending on the bullet you're using. Use any of the high weight retaining bullets we have available now and I'd guess you'd not see measurable difference. Sometimes more is just more and not necessarily better.

Sectional density is certainly a parameter that has value. But I think many people mistakenly think of this number as a static parameter. It is only static prior to impact with an object that will cause the bullets shape and weight to change. Once the bullet impacts an animal, sectional density becomes quite dynamic. With bullets of older technology the sectional density is going to drop both due to expansion and weight loss. With bullets like the TSX, A-Frame, GSC, Peregrine and North Fork, the sectional density drops due to expansion, but there is almost no drop in this number due to weight loss.

The point being that conventional wisdom regarding "typical" bullet weights such as 500gr for the .458's or 400gr for the .416's and .423 does not in my opinion apply anymore. The true beauty of these newer bullets is that you can go a bit lighter for at least the same if not better performance in comparison to older bullet design. By doing so you experience less recoil. Would I go overboard in the lighter bullet direction? No I wouldn't. I just wouldn't tie myself to thinking I must use a 400gr bullet in the .404J or a 500gr bullet in any of the .458's.
Lighter bullet in big bore rifles for plains game definitely is a good option,
 

Bert the Turtle

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Both will kill animals effectively. Of the two, only the Jeffery will have panache while doing so.

Were I having a utilitarian pure working rifle made (laminated stock,stainless steel with some corrosion proof wonder coating, that kind of thing) I wouldn't hesitate to have it made in 458. Were I having a bespoke traditional rifle made (high grade walnut, blued steel, hand rubbed oil finish), I would't dream of it. Then again, I prefer restaurants where one dresses for dinner to "casual dining", so perhaps my aesthetic sense is antiquated.
 

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By the way, an aside...pushed from the same case, with the same powder charge, a larger diameter bullet of the same weight will always yield more velocity. It's a bigger piston, therefore more energy gets transferred to the projectile (not to mention that the twist rate is generally less, a not insignificant distinction as better than 25% of the energy released via combustion is consumed in bringing the bullet up to rotational speed...this is why ultra-velocity projects, wherein one is trying to attain the greatest projectile velocity possible, always involve non-rifled bores...some of these get surprisingly close to the gas velocity, which is on the order of 7,000 fps...which is why muzzle brakes can be so effective (F=ma -> consumed powder in the form of a gas escaping the muzzle at around 7,000 fps)).
 

Clayton Holland

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I am not a man who is really into velocity and energy figures. I have used both on a fair number of water buffalo and cannot see any difference. If the placement is not right with either neither will the result be. I normally use solids but have used softs and both do the job well. For mine in practical terms results are very similar as far as the rounds go. More important is the rifle they are chambered in.
 

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Can't argue with the experience of Clayton. I prefer the 404J. One reason is the history of the cartridge - not rational I know. The other is less felt recoil so tend to shoot it better I would think. Another is that it is not straight walled so should feed more reliably and it has the runs on the board from local game rangers to PH's
 

Gert Odendaal

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I have a 404 Jeffery, I shoot it frequently...I also have a .458 Win Mag Mannlicher Shoenauer ...which I also shoot frequently....even shooting these two rifles both with 400 gn bullets I am sure the .458 Win Mag will still have an advantage over the 404 Jeffery...this is my opinion while holding both 400 gn bullets of the 404 Jeffery and .458 Win Mag in hand....(y)

Not taking in account shot placement ect, ect....(y):LOL:
 

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Comparing these two bullet diameters is like comparing big truck engines : the saying " There's nothing like cubic inches " comes to mind.
In my experience although bullet diameter difference seems small , it makes a big difference on the business end. The same holds true with a 470 NE vs. a .458 win mag or lott. when that 470 hits a Buffalo its so much more impressive than the .458 , while on paper not so much.

My 2 cents worth.
 

Gert Odendaal

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It seems getting hold of the 404 Jeffery `s .423 " expanded soft nose bullet and a .458" expanded soft nose bullet may share some light on this discussion? Measuring the diameters of expansion maybe able to provide more insight to this discussion? Any member who have these two caliber bullet`s expanded version pictures available ?(y)
 

bassasdaindia

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I have a .458 Lott and 404 Jeff , I would rather download the jeff than the 458 Lott or WM .

IMHO the 458's only have one use and that is to stop a DG charge or to put a large animal down whilst hunting , IMHO again the 458's do not offer as much versatility as the other calibers namely 404 or 416's .

I would download the 404 Jeff with a swift A frame in 350g to around 2400fps , this will give you a better PG rifle than the 458 downloaded.
 

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I agree, the 404 Jeffery will make an excellent plains game rifle as well when down loaded to lighter grain bullets...although it is a Dangerous game rifle par excellence...to me it is a good all round rifle...from duiker to elephant...since dangerous game hunting is for a few hunters only possible it makes sense to use it in a plains game hunting scenario....it is a scenario that will work for me...(y) In regards to the .458 Win Mag..it is what it was designed for to equal the .470 Nitro Express double rifle in every scenario except in price...this was to give a normal man/hunter/ph who do not have the finances to purchase a double rifle to purchase a dangerous game stopping rifle in a bolt action that is affordable...
 

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I have a .458 Lott and 404 Jeff , I would rather download the jeff than the 458 Lott or WM .

IMHO the 458's only have one use and that is to stop a DG charge or to put a large animal down whilst hunting , IMHO again the 458's do not offer as much versatility as the other calibers namely 404 or 416's .

I would download the 404 Jeff with a swift A frame in 350g to around 2400fps , this will give you a better PG rifle than the 458 downloaded.

I have a .404 Jeff in progress now. I finally found a M70 in .300RUM a couple weeks ago and it has made it to the gunsmith who will re-barrel and convert it to a .404J. I have never owned one before but have shot it, can't wait to get this rifle back.

But I would have to disagree that a .458 has only one use. I've used the bullet below on two hunts now for PG and my recent lioness. This bullet is absolutely devastating coming out of my .458B&M at 2900fps. My lioness barely twitched.

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=D458

There are other light for caliber bullets from CEB and North Fork that can be used to tone down the recoil but will work fine on buffalo. The bullet above also comes in .423 diameter too.

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=D423
 

IvW

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The 404 Jeff is a much better African hunting calibre than the 458 Win would ever be.

Use 400 grain plus bullets in the 404 Jeff, that is what it was designed to shoot. If you want to start shooting lighter for calibre bullets rather step down in calibre but shoot heavy for calibre bullet. Eg. Instead of shooting 300 or 350 grain bullets in the 404 Jeff go down to a 375 H&H.
 

Gert Odendaal

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The example was made in terms of different bullet weights and comparing the 458WM to the 404 Jeff.

If you are not capable with the "smaller" 404, then I would suggest you stay clear of the 458.....

There is no caliber for a crap shot!

I purchased 400 gn Core Bonded bullets for the .458 Mannlicher Schoenauer (Win Mag) to use as comparison with the 404 Jeffery core bonded 400 gn bullet in the upcoming hunt in July this year...I will be hunting kudu and warthog...I like to do a practical comparisons, too many hunters like to speculate on theoretical terms regarding bullets and their performances ,few do actual hunting comparisons..let us see how these two bullet weights performs..then we will be able to make real conclusions....(y)(y)

I will upload data shooting over a chrony , penetration results on game shot with these two calibers during the hunt, as well as bullet recovery data....
 

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