375 shotgun shells?

[Kevin Peacocke]

Many years ago in the military we used to deconstruct a 7.62 Nato round, jam the bullet between the tynes of a fork and melt over the Gaz stove. Pouring into water gave some shot, albeit with tails. Then one poured out half the powder, a little toilet paper as a wad and in went the shot, capped off by a little more moist toilet paper. Close the gas port to prevent anything blowing back and you have a dove and francolin weapon, and we took many for the pot. now just for fun I want to do the same with 375 Flanged brass, and I am thinking 8 grams of 6 shot over 40 grains of 365 to sort of duplicate the 36 bore. Should be a fine dove getter at close range in my 375 Verney O/U. Has anyone done this?

 

[Dirtdart]

I made some shot cartridges for a .458 Win that I had years back with the intention of taking the occasional grouse while on scouting trips in the mountains. The shot would pattern like a donut without fail which is caused by the rifling. If memory serves I was able to get as much shot as a .410 in that .458 case but it was not nearly as effective as a .410 shotshell. I hope that your results are better than my experiment. Good luck!

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

I normally miss, so the doughnut may be just the recipe!

 

[Longwalker]

You already have the experience with the 7.62 Nato, so the concept is tested, somewhat. But I would have trouble putting that kind of ammo in such a nice rifle. If my rather extensive experience shooting much smaller .22 shot cartridges in a rifled barrel has any correlation, you will find that after several shots using unprotected lead pellets going down a rifled bore, you can expect some lead deposits in the grooves of the rifles barrel, and more lead in the throat just in front of where the rifling starts. Shoot enough shot cartridges and the lead build up will start to interfere when chambering a regular bulleted round. Not good for accuracy or reliability when you want to shoot a bullet out of that barrel. Donut shaped shot patterns and a practical limitation of very close range is the other consequence.

Just for discussion, I would also wonder about pressures developed when pushing a charge of shot through a bottlenecked case. At a minimum the pellets would be deformed when squeezing them through the neck of the case ( = poor patterns ) , at worst, a pressure spike.

You would also be playing a gambler's game by using a rifle powder originally designed to develop pressure slowly behind a bullet. Look up the phenomenon of "detonation" that sometimes occurs when small charges of slow burning powder are used to make a light load in large volume cases. It is possible to have a pressure excursion that could wreck your rifle.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Wow, thanks Longwalker, I had no idea of the consequences. You are right, i dont want to even dream of damaging this beautiful rifle, so I guess we will leave that plan on the shelf and get a 20 bore instead.

 

[Longwalker]

I gave this a little more thought, ( was just sitting at home because of the COVID-19 virus restrictions anyway!) and IF I was really committed to the concept, I would go about it like this:
First, have a skilled machinist make some cartridge cases that are actually chamber adapters. Cylindrical inside, same shape and dimensions outside as a regular cartridge case.
Figure out how you can make / adapt a polyethylene plastic shot sleeve similar to what .410 shot shells use to protect the shot and the bore from contact with each other. Choose a load of small shot pellets that fits inside the shot cup with no bore contact. Shot cup must have some slits to allow the shot to release after it exits the muzzle.
Extrapolate load data from known shot loads in straight walled cartridges, using appropriate shotshell / pistol powder. Light loads for the .410 shotgun would likely work.
Seal the top of the cartridge with a thin cardboard disc glued in place
The strength of your rifle should give you plenty of safety margin if approached in this way, and using cartridges assembled in this way will protect your bore.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Thanks Longwalker, ill give it all some thought.

 

[IvW]

Buy a shot gun....

 

[Red Leg]

Many years ago in the military we used to deconstruct a 7.62 Nato round, jam the bullet between the tynes of a fork and melt over the Gaz stove. Pouring into water gave some shot, albeit with tails. Then one poured out half the powder, a little toilet paper as a wad and in went the shot, capped off by a little more moist toilet paper. Close the gas port to prevent anything blowing back and you have a dove and francolin weapon, and we took many for the pot. now just for fun I want to do the same with 375 Flanged brass, and I am thinking 8 grams of 6 shot over 40 grains of 365 to sort of duplicate the 36 bore. Should be a fine dove getter at close range in my 375 Verney O/U. Has anyone done this?

I think it would be a ridiculous dove load. .2 ounces of shot makes a .410 look like a magnum. Add rifling to the mix and you will also be assured of completely ragged patterns - assuming .2 ounces of shot could be considered a pattern at all. I would do the doves a favor and make another plan.

In this country one can buy "snake loads" that will fit a .38 or .357 revolver with typically 100 grns of #9 shot (6.5 grams). Their effective range on a snake or a rat is measured in feet - and very few of those.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Oh well, shotgun it is!

 

[Forrest Halley]

Since you have already pledged not to do this I'm not stating this as a caution. I once had the brilliant idea to carry #4 buckshot in case turkeys came up while I was hunting deer with my bolt action fully rifled slug gun. So I fired it with high brass #6 at a mud hole. At 25 yards the pattern was something like twelve feet in diameter. I never hunted with that combination after that.

 

[Longwalker]

I believe the phenomenon of a rifled bore spreading shot has been used on purpose by hunters in France to help them hit the close range, fast flying woodcock. IF your game is very very close, fast moving, and small, the concept actually has some merit! Not that I personally have any use for the concept, but discussion and theories are fun.

 

[Longwalker]

Oh well, shotgun it is!

Look into a second barrel set for your rifle. Might be possible, perhaps even practical!

 

[Red Leg]

The Brits are the only gunmakers to figure this out. Col Fosbery and Holland & Holland created the Paradox. In a 12 bore, the final six inches are so of a double are lightly rifled. They fire a 740-750 gr conical projectile accurately out beyond 100 yards. With no adjustments, the same barrels shoot 1 1/8 ounce shot loads with typically perfect IC or Mod patterns. They work as well today as they did before WWI. With my William Evans, I have rolled warthog and piled up sand grouse from the same waterhole.

H&H will build you a new one. I am surprised some enterprising barrel maker hasn’t tried to replicate the technology in an affordable deer/turkey barrel for slug guns. And yes I am aware of screw in rifled “chokes”.

 

[Forrest Halley]

Hmm never thought to try the rifled choke tube option. Does it work?

Didn't Beretta have a rifled barrel option on one of their guns at one time?

 

[M McDindi]

During the US Civil War, there was a 45-70 Forager or Foraging round the soldiers used to self procure small game.

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffsb&q=45-70+foraging+round&ia=web

I played with a version of this by cutting two cardboard disks, added a light Springfield Carbine smokeless powder charge, tamped the first cardboard disk down lightly on the powder, added some shot to nearly the top of the case mouth, set the second disk on top and sealed with a little hot glue.

Didn't cycle too well in a lever gun. Fired fine out of a single shot, but the pattern was effective to maybe 10yds or so. Kind of gave it up. Time to make them wasn't worth it. Just use a .410 and factory loads.

 

[flatwater bill]

Kevin.....have you been around anyone that has tested positive for Covid?..............FWB

 

[Forrest Halley]

AFTER the US Civil War, there was a 45-70 Forager or Foraging round the soldiers used to self procure small game.

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffsb&q=45-70+foraging+round&ia=web

Fixed your history for you...

 

[M McDindi]

Thanks - at least I was in the correct century!

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

No Flatwater bill, but why do you ask?