375 H&H Cross Bolts???

[275r7x57]

I am looking at a 375 H&H custom m98 rifle. The rifle is a professional build with extremely well inletting and bedding but with no cross bolts. My questions.

1. Does a 375 need cross bolts if the stock is properly inletted and bedded.

2. If so how many. One or two.

3. If just one cross bolt is needed. Witch one front or back.

4. If cross bolts are needed. Epoxy or not.

What do you guys think. Just let me know.

Thanks
275

 

[Puddle]

When I bought my M70 Safari Express in 375 H&H some 20+ years ago the wood stock had two cross bolts. When I handed it to the gunsmith for tuning, massaging, and synthetic stock replacement the resulting rifle needed no cross bolts.

I'm assuming yours is wood stocked? What does your builder recommend?

 

[Neil Molendyk]

I have a BRNO 602 factory stock and there are no cross bolts. I have not had any issues with it. I also have a CZ 550 in 416 rigby, came from the factory with one cross bolt but I had a second one installed. Even though the two rifles are very close in weight, the 416 has significantly more recoil. Manageable but noticeable.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I have a BRNO 602 factory stock and there are no cross bolts. I have not had any issues with it. I also have a CZ 550 in 416 rigby, came from the factory with one cross bolt but I had a second one installed. Even though the two rifles are very close in weight, the 416 has significantly more recoil. Manageable but noticeable.

My used factory CZ 550 .458 Lott has NO crossbolts. I can't imagine how the stock could crack unless it's put on a sled? The shooter gives with the recoil, so? If it does someday crack, I'll get a Bell and Carlson.

 

[Joker12]

Why take a chance on splitting the stock when properly installed cross bolts and a bit of epoxy can prevent it. I want rifles intended for serious hunting to be absolutely reliable.

 

[275r7x57]

When I bought my M70 Safari Express in 375 H&H some 20+ years ago the wood stock had two cross bolts. When I handed it to the gunsmith for tuning, massaging, and synthetic stock replacement the resulting rifle needed no cross bolts.

I'm assuming yours is wood stocked? What does your builder recommend?

Yes English walnut. I sent him an email today and waiting reply.

275

 

[275r7x57]

Why take a chance on splitting the stock when properly installed cross bolts and a bit of epoxy can prevent it. I want rifles intended for serious hunting to be absolutely reliable.

I am with you on this. I don’t mind the extra insurance and extra cost even if I never need it.

You will never know if it is over built. But you will for sure know if it is under built.

275

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Why take a chance on splitting the stock when properly installed cross bolts and a bit of epoxy can prevent it. I want rifles intended for serious hunting to be absolutely reliable.

+1

 

[Neil Molendyk]

Shortly after i purchased my CZ550 in 416 Rigby, after I had developed a load for it and practised with it, I went to an African Hunting Show. I ended up meeting with the Heym rifle representative and was looking at their 416 Rigby, a beautiful but appeared to be delicate firearm. He asked me what I was shooting and I told him a CZ550. He referred to it as a crude club to which I replied "Yes and I wouldn't be afraid to use as one if I needed to but wouldn't try that with the Heym". To each his own I guess. It has to be utterly reliable. Needless to say our conversation was brief.

 

[CoElkHunter]

I don't know about the crossbolts? How necessary are they? Maybe a properly bedded stock is more crucial? From what I understand, many of the PHs in Africa use the CZ 550 because it is a fairly well built economically priced rifle. Maybe they do have crossbolt(s) added to their rifles if they don't already have them. My .338WM Browning A Bolt with a wooden stock doesn't have crossbolts and I've been shooting it since the mid '90s when I bought it slightly used. Maybe I've just been lucky?

 

[fourfive8]

I have always had mixed feelings about the cross bolts and still not 100% convinced of the necessity if the inletting is correct. But one caveat in my head always remains, "predicting wood behavior over long periods of time is a crap shoot". Two things can cause splitting- 1) drying, warping, shrink-swell humidity cycling and/or 2) recoil force. With a custom done stock that is properly insetted.... doubtful 375 recoil will be root cause of any issue. However, if the wood stresses over time, for whatever reason, it may split or crack no matter if exposed to recoil forces or not. A properly relieved and glass bedded stock will rarely split or crack- then the cross bolts would be mostly window dressing. As has been posted, it will absolutely be too late for any prevention, either glass bedding and/or cross bolts, if it ever does crack or split Properly done cross bolts will not detract from value or aesthetics and do add somewhat of a statement, "proper DG rifle", whether or not the added structural insurance ever comes into play. Also, if you do one cross bolt might as well do two. With basic skills and tools, they are also within the possibility of many DIYers. I added two cross bolts, using a minimum of tools, to my 375 HH BRNO 602 factory rifle not long ago and it turned out ok- about on par with the factory cross bolts I've seen on CZs and BRNOs.

 

[275r7x57]

I have always had mixed feelings about the cross bolts and still not 100% convinced of the necessity if the inletting is correct. But one caveat in my head always remains, "predicting wood behavior over long periods of time is a crap shoot". Two things can cause splitting- 1) drying, warping, shrink-swell humidity cycling and/or 2) recoil force. With a custom done stock that is properly insetted.... doubtful 375 recoil will be root cause of any issue. However, if the wood stresses over time, for whatever reason, it may split or crack no matter if exposed to recoil forces or not. A properly relieved and glass bedded stock will rarely split or crack- then the cross bolts would be mostly window dressing. As has been posted, it will absolutely be too late for any prevention, either glass bedding and/or cross bolts, if it ever does crack or split Properly done cross bolts will not detract from value or aesthetics and do add somewhat of a statement, "proper DG rifle", whether or not the added structural insurance ever comes into play. Also, if you do one cross bolt might as well do two. With basic skills and tools, they are also within the possibility of many DIYers. I added two cross bolts, using a minimum of tools, to my 375 HH BRNO 602 factory rifle not long ago and it turned out ok- about on par with the factory cross bolts I've seen on CZs and BRNOs.

Thank you for the info.

275

 

[thi9elsp]

Both of my CZ 550s 375 H&H and 404J have two cross bolts.

 

[CBH Australia]

Why not just do it in the build stage.

If the rifle gets a lot of use down the track you have pre-empt any issue.

They don't look out of place on a big bore so it would look ok to me

 

[One Day...]

I am looking at a 375 H&H custom m98 rifle. The rifle is a professional build with extremely well inletting and bedding but with no cross bolts. My questions.

1. Does a 375 need cross bolts if the stock is properly inletted and bedded.

2. If so how many. One or two.

3. If just one cross bolt is needed. Witch one front or back.

4. If cross bolts are needed. Epoxy or not.

What do you guys think. Just let me know.

Thanks
275

1. Does a 375 need cross bolts if the stock is properly inletted and bedded.
NO.
But they cannot hurt.
I would definitely recommend doing it on any .40+ rifle, and frankly it is so easy to do or have it done that it makes sense on a recently produced .375 (see item 4) if only for aesthetic value.
But do not be confused: proper bedding, i.e. proper relief of the rear tang area and proper full, straight & square contact on the back of the recoil lug (behind the front action screw), as well as steel pillars for the front and rear action screws -- even is as simple as the metal tubes on all military K98 -- is as important as, or more than, cross bolts.

2. If so how many. One or two.
If you do it, you might as well do two, again, if only for aesthetic reasons.
And do not waste time or money getting it done without epoxy as well.

3. If just one cross bolt is needed. Witch one front or back.
Most definitely the front, IF the rear tang area is properly relieved.
If not, the rear will split long before the front.
Think of it this way: the rear cross bolt is a last ditch effort after everything that should have been done right behind the front recoil lug was done wrong. Military K98 did not have a rear cross bolt, but they did have a front cross bolt. Do we need to say more?
Along these lines, a proper front recoil cross bolt should be square as they were on military K98, not round as on modern rifles, because the flat rear surface of a square bolt will distribute the recoil a lot more than a round rear surface that will create a splitting stress point.

4. If cross bolts are needed. Epoxy or not.
YES !!!
In the old days when walnut was given 10 years to cure before stock were carved, and when final inletting was done by hand one thousandth at a time, epoxy was not needed.
Nowadays when wood is so fresh that it almost still grows leaves, and that inletting is done by machine to one hundredth, if not one tenth, and occasionally one fourth, epoxy is a must on any rifle with any recoil.
Sure, a lot of rifles do not have it ... but this may be why so many stocks split...

 

[Wyatt Smith]

If you take it to the Smith for cross bolts I would also consider having pillars installed in the action screw holes.

 

[275r7x57]

1. Does a 375 need cross bolts if the stock is properly inletted and bedded.
NO.
But they cannot hurt.
I would definitely recommend doing it on any .40+ rifle, and frankly it is so easy to do or have it done that it makes sense on a recently produced .375 (see item 4) if only for aesthetic value.
But do not be confused: proper bedding, i.e. proper relief of the rear tang area and proper full, straight & square contact on the back of the recoil lug (behind the front action screw), as well as steel pillars for the front and rear action screws -- even is as simple as the metal tubes on all military K98 -- is much more important than cross bolts.

2. If so how many. One or two.
If you do it, you might as well do two, again, if only for aesthetic reasons.
And do not waste time or money getting it done without epoxy as well.

3. If just one cross bolt is needed. Witch one front or back.
Most definitely the front, IF the rear tang area is properly relieved.
If not, the rear will split long before the front.
Think of it this way: the rear cross bolt is a last ditch effort after everything that should have been done right behind the front recoil lug was done wrong.

4. If cross bolts are needed. Epoxy or not.
YES !!!
In the old days when walnut was given 10 years to cure before stock were carved, and when final inletting was done by hand one thousandth at a time, epoxy was not needed.
Nowadays when wood is so fresh that it almost still grows leaves, and that inletting is done by machine to one hundredth, if not one tenth, and occasionally one fourth, epoxy is a must on any rifle with any recoil.
Sure, a lot of rifles do not have it ... but this may be why so many stocks split...

Thank you. Very informative and a great help.

275

 

[CBH Australia]

1. Does a 375 need cross bolts if the stock is properly inletted and bedded.
NO.
But they cannot hurt.
I would definitely recommend doing it on any .40+ rifle, and frankly it is so easy to do or have it done that it makes sense on a recently produced .375 (see item 4) if only for aesthetic value.
But do not be confused: proper bedding, i.e. proper relief of the rear tang area and proper full, straight & square contact on the back of the recoil lug (behind the front action screw), as well as steel pillars for the front and rear action screws -- even is as simple as the metal tubes on all military K98 -- is as important as, or more than, cross bolts.

2. If so how many. One or two.
If you do it, you might as well do two, again, if only for aesthetic reasons.
And do not waste time or money getting it done without epoxy as well.

3. If just one cross bolt is needed. Witch one front or back.
Most definitely the front, IF the rear tang area is properly relieved.
If not, the rear will split long before the front.
Think of it this way: the rear cross bolt is a last ditch effort after everything that should have been done right behind the front recoil lug was done wrong. Military K98 did not have a rear cross bolt, but they did have a front cross bolt. Do we need to say more?
Along these lines, a proper front recoil cross bolt should be square as they were on military K98, not round as on modern rifles, because the flat rear surface of a square bolt will distribute the recoil a lot more than a round rear surface that will create a splitting stress point.

4. If cross bolts are needed. Epoxy or not.
YES !!!
In the old days when walnut was given 10 years to cure before stock were carved, and when final inletting was done by hand one thousandth at a time, epoxy was not needed.
Nowadays when wood is so fresh that it almost still grows leaves, and that inletting is done by machine to one hundredth, if not one tenth, and occasionally one fourth, epoxy is a must on any rifle with any recoil.
Sure, a lot of rifles do not have it ... but this may be why so many stocks split...

Yeah, they might be growing leaves, but Yeah, good points

 

[Nhoro]

My CZ 550 in 458 win mag - now a Lott came with factory crossbolts- not very tight. all stocks will flex during firing- cross bolts help reduce splitting. The danger areas are where the wood is thin and where the inletting cuts across the grain ( speaking as a hobbiest carpenter). So on most actions you have the recoil lug in front of the magazine cut out. That is where they strengthen with a crossbolt and second behind the magazine (also cross cut and thin wood). Put in crossbolts and bed. Again my CZ had a crappy little plastic shim behind the recoil lug which I removed and epoxy bedded. CZ have added a clever front lug in the forearm. The forearm is a big pretty solid lump of wood and so spreads the recoil before it gets to the magazine area. If it were mine I would crossbolt and bed the lug area.

 

[Joker12]

My CZ 550 in 458 win mag - now a Lott came with factory crossbolts- not very tight. all stocks will flex during firing- cross bolts help reduce splitting. The danger areas are where the wood is thin and where the inletting cuts across the grain ( speaking as a hobbiest carpenter). So on most actions you have the recoil lug in front of the magazine cut out. That is where they strengthen with a crossbolt and second behind the magazine (also cross cut and thin wood). Put in crossbolts and bed. Again my CZ had a crappy little plastic shim behind the recoil lug which I removed and epoxy bedded. CZ have added a clever front lug in the forearm. The forearm is a big pretty solid lump of wood and so spreads the recoil before it gets to the magazine area. If it were mine I would crossbolt and bed the lug area.

My 1964 safari grade Browning 375 is done with double cross bolts, a second recoil lug on the barrel in the forearm and glass bedded as your CZ is. Thats a big rifle done right!