350 Legend

Ray B

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In response to some states that previously limited deer hunting to shotguns w/slugs or muzzleloaders but have now expanded the legal definition to include "straight walled' cartridges Winchester has introduced the 350 Legend. I've read that the basic cartridge is the .223/5.56mm that has had the shoulder straightened. So I'm guessing that it is a rimless case holding a .358" bullet and has virtually a straight walled case. I have two questions. 1. does it headspace on the neck ala 30 carbine? and 2. does it have that much advantage over the 357 Maximum. I'd think operationally, the maximum being a rimmed case would have an advantage. What say you?
 

mdwest

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I think the 350 legend offers several potential advantages over 357 MAX, depending on intended use and application..

the legend throws a 160gr projectile roughly 2250 fps... the 357 MAX tosses a 158gr projectile out of the barrel at roughly 1950 fps...

the legend works well in AR platforms which are heavily used by hog hunters.. and offers substantially more ballistic capability over other standard AR platform options like 556 and 300 BLK.. without having to deal with the heavy recoil of the big bore AR options like 450 bushmaster and 458 SOCOM..

the legend gets extremely close to replicating 35 Remington performance.. but does it while meeting the silly straight wall requirement that some states seem to think make for better hunting cartridges... and while working in one of the most popular (Im guessing the most popular) rifle platforms in the US..

And.. there are a number of factory ammo options available for 350 legend.. and several more options planned to be released soon.. to my knowledge no major ammo manufacturer is loading 357 MAX these days..

I've been seriously thinking about building a 350 legend upper for one of my AR's and making it my primary pig popper.. I originally was leaning toward either 300 BLK or 7.62x39 for an AR platform for pigs.. but the more I look at the legend, the more I think its the better option..


on the headspace question.. i believe it headspaces off the case mouth..
 
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Wyatt Smith

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I know a person who said the Illinois DNR approve his 300 black out pistol with a stabilizing brace for whitetail. The bottleneck case was OK because it was shorter than the max case length allowed for bottlenecks.
Sorry for derailing, but I found it interesting and I might look into it.
 

Standard Velocity

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I’m sure the new 350 Legend will kill a whitetail or a hog but the ballistics are underwhelming even for a straight walled cartridge. It looks like a perfectly adequate round for inside 100 yards. For the recoil sensitive it could be the bees knees.

For shots over 150 yards the 444 Marlin, 45-70 or 450 Bushmaster all look better. With practice at reasonable distance the 444 Marlin or the +p 45-70 in a falling block could be as practical as most bottle neck cartridges.

There is a lot of hype around this new cartridge and I feel they are overselling its capabilities. If used like an awesome handgun cartridge there is probably nothing short of truly large game it can’t take. I like it in the same role as 357 Maximum.
 

mdwest

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I’m sure the new 350 Legend will kill a whitetail or a hog but the ballistics are underwhelming even for a straight walled cartridge. It looks like a perfectly adequate round for inside 100 yards. For the recoil sensitive it could be the bees knees.

For shots over 150 yards the 444 Marlin, 45-70 or 450 Bushmaster all look better. With practice at reasonable distance the 444 Marlin or the +p 45-70 in a falling block could be as practical as most bottle neck cartridges.

There is a lot of hype around this new cartridge and I feel they are overselling its capabilities. If used like an awesome handgun cartridge there is probably nothing short of truly large game it can’t take. I like it in the same role as 357 Maximum.

All truth..

the 444 Marlin and 45-70 dont fit in an AR platform though.. and the 450 bushmaster requires a good bit of modification as well as its own BCG, magazines, etc. to work on the AR platform.. while at the same time providing more capacity and lower recoil.. which both are extremely favorable attributes to hog hunters running up on sounders.. (its not about recoil tolerance for most.. its about how quickly you can get back on target and find the next pig before they all run off.. its not uncommon to get off 10 or more shots on a large sounder before they all disperse.. as long as you have a weapon in hand that gives you that capability)..

In a bolt action or a lever action.. if you are willing to stand up to 45-70 or 444 Marlin.. and willing to pay the higher ammo cost, etc.. i dont disagree that depending on the circumstances, they might be better choices for a whitetail hunter..

That wasnt what the OP asked though.. he asked about 350 legend vs 357 max.. which has less ballistic capability than the 350 legend.. less ammo choices (no factory choices to my knowledge), wont work in as many platforms, and is more limited in hunting applications..
 

Ray B

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That wasnt what the OP asked though.. he asked about 350 legend vs 357 max..


The original comment in comparing the two was based on the Legend case being rimless and about 1/10" longer than the Max which is rimmed and slightly shorter. Not part of the equation is that the pressure limits are different or that the Max is considered a handgun cartridge, thus using handgun bullets. The comparison was: given similar seating depths what are the powder capacities of the two (and is the difference significant); and which advantages/disadvantages of the rimmed and rimless cases are pertinent to the guns that would be used for big game in those states that recently added straight sided cases to the legal list.
 

Standard Velocity

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All truth..

the 444 Marlin and 45-70 dont fit in an AR platform though.. and the 450 bushmaster requires a good bit of modification as well as its own BCG, magazines, etc. to work on the AR platform.. while at the same time providing more capacity and lower recoil.. which both are extremely favorable attributes to hog hunters running up on sounders.. (its not about recoil tolerance for most.. its about how quickly you can get back on target and find the next pig before they all run off.. its not uncommon to get off 10 or more shots on a large sounder before they all disperse.. as long as you have a weapon in hand that gives you that capability)..

In a bolt action or a lever action.. if you are willing to stand up to 45-70 or 444 Marlin.. and willing to pay the higher ammo cost, etc.. i dont disagree that depending on the circumstances, they might be better choices for a whitetail hunter..

That wasnt what the OP asked though.. he asked about 350 legend vs 357 max.. which has less ballistic capability than the 350 legend.. less ammo choices (no factory choices to my knowledge), wont work in as many platforms, and is more limited in hunting applications..

All good points. For the purpose of pig control I wonder how 158 grain hardcast Keith semiwadcutters would perform. With a copper gas check you could probably get them screaming out of even a carbine length barrel with minimal fouling. Wonder how well such a round would feed?
 

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A couple of years ago, Ohio started allowing the use of straight walled “handgun” cartridges in rifles for the hunting of deer during the previously shotgun slug/handgun only deer season. The cartridge must be .357 magnum or larger.
 

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There are two issues with the Legend that cause concern to me. First is having it headspace on the throat. I find headspacing on a shoulder much preferable and allows me to crimp the bullet, without concerns about the action failing to lock-up or FTF due to wrong case length. Secondly I consider the powder capacity insufficient to send a bullet of desired weight at sufficient velocity. for small big game (animals with less than 200 pounds live weight) I consider the various 24 and 25 caliber bullets a lot better match for the 223 case.
 

mdwest

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an old thread.. but I've got a bit of an update..

I did end up with a .350 legend upper (as well as a .458 SOCOM upper :) ).. and assembled a couple of new AR15's about a month ago..

I havent had the opportunity to shoot a pig or deer with the legend yet (I intended on hitting a place in southeast TX this weekend to give it them both a whirl on pigs.. but the looming hurricane(s) halted that plan.... thanks again 2020... you suck! :) )...

But.. for a 200 yard or less deer/hog gun, I think the 350 legend might be a nearly perfect option...

Better terminal ballistics than a .30-30 winchester (most 180gr factory ammo options are pushing about 2350 FPS and most 150gr options are pushing just north of 2500 fps).. for pigs, you have the ability to put a lot of lead down range quickly (10 and 20 round mags are common and affordable), recoil is noticeably lighter than a .243 ... ammo is cheap ($15-$25 a box depending on what you want). all parts are interchangeable with a 556 AR with the exception of the barrel and the magazines.. so tweaking/tuning a gun to your liking is both easy and affordable.. and while not exactly a precision instrument.. I'm getting MOA results at 100 yards with winchester white box FMJ's, Federal blue box power shocks, and winchester super-x power points (all 180 gr).. and.. ammunition is becoming pretty common/plentiful... every time I have been in Cabelas over the last month (3 times?) there have been at least 4-5 boxes of 3 different options for 350 legend.. and I was just in Academy yesterday and there were 2 different options (maybe 6 boxes of each available).. this is at a time where most "AR" ammo is getting very difficult to find... good luck with 556, 7.62x39, 300 BLK, etc right now..

I read a few reviews several months ago about some AR uppers in 350 legend having some feeding problems, some mags having feeding problems etc.. I havent had an issue yet.. I bought a couple of quality CMMG mags for it.. and the upper is a bear creek (known for pretty high quality at a reasonable cost compared to competitors).. not a single FTF, FTE, etc as of yet (only 80 rounds down range so far.. but so far so good..

I've been very happy with the purchase.. and will probably deer and hog hunt with the 458 SOCOM and 350 Legend exclusively this year in TX (will be taking one of my 308 bolt guns to Alaska in Nov for a deer hunt)..
 

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an old thread.. but I've got a bit of an update..

I did end up with a .350 legend upper (as well as a .458 SOCOM upper :) ).. and assembled a couple of new AR15's about a month ago..

I havent had the opportunity to shoot a pig or deer with the legend yet (I intended on hitting a place in southeast TX this weekend to give it them both a whirl on pigs.. but the looming hurricane(s) halted that plan.... thanks again 2020... you suck! :) )...

But.. for a 200 yard or less deer/hog gun, I think the 350 legend might be a nearly perfect option...

Better terminal ballistics than a .30-30 winchester (most 180gr factory ammo options are pushing about 2350 FPS and most 150gr options are pushing just north of 2500 fps).. for pigs, you have the ability to put a lot of lead down range quickly (10 and 20 round mags are common and affordable), recoil is noticeably lighter than a .243 ... ammo is cheap ($15-$25 a box depending on what you want). all parts are interchangeable with a 556 AR with the exception of the barrel and the magazines.. so tweaking/tuning a gun to your liking is both easy and affordable.. and while not exactly a precision instrument.. I'm getting MOA results at 100 yards with winchester white box FMJ's, Federal blue box power shocks, and winchester super-x power points (all 180 gr).. and.. ammunition is becoming pretty common/plentiful... every time I have been in Cabelas over the last month (3 times?) there have been at least 4-5 boxes of 3 different options for 350 legend.. and I was just in Academy yesterday and there were 2 different options (maybe 6 boxes of each available).. this is at a time where most "AR" ammo is getting very difficult to find... good luck with 556, 7.62x39, 300 BLK, etc right now..

I read a few reviews several months ago about some AR uppers in 350 legend having some feeding problems, some mags having feeding problems etc.. I havent had an issue yet.. I bought a couple of quality CMMG mags for it.. and the upper is a bear creek (known for pretty high quality at a reasonable cost compared to competitors).. not a single FTF, FTE, etc as of yet (only 80 rounds down range so far.. but so far so good..

I've been very happy with the purchase.. and will probably deer and hog hunt with the 458 SOCOM and 350 Legend exclusively this year in TX (will be taking one of my 308 bolt guns to Alaska in Nov for a deer hunt)..
@mdwest Thanks for offering your experience with the 350 Legend. I've held off on getting a upper and getting into another AR-15 caliber. Being from Ohio, there was a lot of discussion on this cartridge, pros and cons. I'm glad to see a decent level of support from commercial ammo manufacturers for it. I have a T/C Encore in .357 Max, honestly I haven't shot it much. I typically deer hunt in Kentucky, where you can use virtually any cartridge. I believe when you look at the list of allowable cartridges for Ohio, they all have a 200 yard hunting range. So thank you.
 

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sounds a bit like the 351 winchester .
a deer gun in its time and famous for potentially killing bonnie and clyde.
oh how the worm turns.
bruce.
 

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It is a shame that they did not use .223 brass as the parent, seeing as people have been making this wildcat for years.
 

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Or use 0.358" bullets. There was a bit of questioning asked of state DNR's for clarification on minimum bullet size, the 350 Legend is using 0.356" bullets (9mm).
 

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I own a 350 Legend rifle. It is basically a 150 yd max (effective) rifle.
I have a muzzle break on mind, so it is basically recoil free. Ammo is very inexpensive. Good caliber for deer or hog. I might consider a bear.

I personally like the 350 as it the "new 30-30" caliber.
 

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Yes, I bought a few Sako A1 & 461 Vixens to convert to 30/223 - 30 Apache way back.
Then after reading about how useful the 357Max was in a rifle (very similar to 35Rem) & all the bullets that work at that velocity on the Marlin site decided to look at making a .35 on the 223 case, I even asked Mike Bellm (Mr 357 Max) about it & he said sounds good.
This was like 15-18 years ago & I never did the work, not too long ago I see I chap made up a AR 357 Max & that got me keen again, soon after Winchester brings out the 350 Legend .

But it seems they did a few strange things on designing it ?

We can have suppressors here easy, so was thinking fast twist barrel & shoot 300gr-310gr HC big flat nose slugs would work well to, the Sako has a 6-7 shot magazine which I thought a plus on mob control.

Sort of moved on again & now have 3 Sako 75's, like them but I'm sure you could lost a mag easy & eyeing up a Sako 85 .
 

Viral_SIGness

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I would ten to one rather use a Savage bolt action Slug gun. They put high quality slugs in groups at 1.5" at 100 yards. With that depending on the Sabot, you can use .455"-0.458" or .50 bullets. The Hornady's were fantastic, even in a 535 I had with a rifled barrel.
 

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The more I shoot my .350 Legend AR.. the more I absolutely love it..

It wont be replacing any of my bolt guns for deer, elk, bear, etc...

But at this point I am convinced it is the absolute best pig pounder money can buy...

Roughly .30-30 terminal performance... with less than .243 recoil.. out of a reliable and well known semi auto platform that Ive got more than 30 years of experience with.. combined with a 20 round magazine.. There is nothing more lethal I can deploy against a sounder of pigs trying to raid my feeders and food plots..

And.. despite all of the ammo shortages, price gouging, etc.. I was still reliably able to find .350 legend on the shelf at Cabelas, Bass Pro, Academy, etc.. all the way until December 2020.. and managed to pick up 15 boxes of federal 180gr power-shok over the course of several different shopping trips.. So I am set for ammo for a good while before I have to start reloading for it (already have dies, plenty of small pistol primers, bullets, brass, and powder to support it)..

After about 8 months of use.. Im thinking the .458 SOCOM is a "fun" gun.. but not really what I was looking for in a hog hammer.. the .350 Legend on the other hand is something entirely different.. Im not sure it can be beat..
 

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