>35 Whelen versus. 338 Win Mag TKO values (modified)

[Axle2010]

Ok boys I've got a question for yall: doesn't the 338/35 Whelen comparison work similar to the 416/458? Meaning from what I'm reading (mostly from you fine gentlemen) the 416's typically outpenetrate a comparable 458 because of the smaller cross section of a similar weight bullet having the same momentum but better sd? I'm not knocking the Whelen by any means, I plan on converting my 30-06 sometime soon but I don't feel like it's quite the 338wm equal.

 

[Axle2010]

500 Jeffery 570g TSX at 2300 fps

Energy: 6694
Momentum: 187
Taylor KO: 95

Wow I like the way that one sounds, I might have to look at that instead of the 460W. I always wanted a true 500

 

[CZDiesel]

Ok boys I've got a question for yall: doesn't the 338/35 Whelen comparison work similar to the 416/458? Meaning from what I'm reading (mostly from you fine gentlemen) the 416's typically outpenetrate a comparable 458 because of the smaller cross section of a similar weight bullet having the same momentum but better sd? I'm not knocking the Whelen by any means, I plan on converting my 30-06 sometime soon but I don't feel like it's quite the 338wm equal.

Nope…
A 500gr 458 bullet has a SD of 341where as a 400gr 416 bullet has a SD of 330…
The 500gr 458 at reasonable velocity will always out penetrate a 400gr 416 of equal bullet design…

 

[colorado]

Wow I like the way that one sounds, I might have to look at that instead of the 460W. I always wanted a true 500

Recoil while sporty loading 103g H4895 with a 570g bullet to 2300 fps is manageable (load is mid range from the book "Any Shot You Want"). My load getting the same bullet to 2510 fps using IMR 4350 was brutal.

Recoil comparison:

570g TSX 103g H4895 2300 fps: 96.13 ft/lbs
570g TSX IMR4350 2510 fps 118.9 ft/lbs

load of IMR4350 deleted to protect the innocent

 

[geopat]

LOL - Well played, Bob! I know that the .35 is a splendid cartridge, as you rightfully say (and nothing plain Jane about it, BTW). I just have to keep up my "persona" as the biggest .375 H&H fanatic!

I’d love to get together to discuss the ‘who’s the biggest.375 fanatic’
I’ve got skin in that game

By the way, .338WM, .35 Whelen , and.375 H&H are all fantastic rounds as is demonstrated by their longevity and performance IMNSHO‍
I just love the.375

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Yeah a hot load for the 35 Squealing compared to a low-end load for a 338WM death ray is cheating @Bob Nelson 35Whelen !!

@Scott CWO
They aren't hot loads
They are recommended book loads
Bob

 

[Rule 303]

One thing I notice in this thread is that those in favour of the 338WM forget about the extra diameter of the 358. Bigger hole lets more light in and more blood out. Now the fly in the ointment is the bigger the diameter the more surface area the greater the friction once inside the animal so for equal momentum and same design the larger cal should pull up quicker.

 

[Boyd Brooks]

The 358 Norma mag came out in 1959 because Winchester missed the mark with the 338 in 1958. Just saying!

 

[Ruraldoc]

The principal difference in 35 Whelen and 338 win mag is felt recoil, that has been my experience.

If we compare bullets of the same weight at the same velocity, the Whelen uses lighter powder charges. If the rifles weigh the same, then the Whelen will have less recoil by all the common metrics of energy, momentum and velocity.

But there is another component of recoil that is harder to calculate but easy to feel at the shoulder, the jet effect of gases exiting the muzzle. The smaller bore diameter of the 338 combined with the larger powder charges leads to a higher gas effect.

The gas effect is why a 300 Weatherby has a more violent recoil feel than a 338 which has more violent recoil than a 35 Whelen or 9.3x62.

Having owned and shot all of these, that is how it feels to me as well and that is why I no longer own or shoot the 300 Weatherby and 338 Win Mag.

I can get the the same performance on game with cartridges that are more pleasant to shoot and more economical to reload.

To me the sweet spots for good performance on game without having excessive reooil are :

1. Light rifle 7x57, 308, 30-06

2. Medium rifle 35 Whelen, 9.3x62

3. Heavy rifle 416s

 

[baxterb]

The principal difference in 35 Whelen and 338 win mag is felt recoil, that has been my experience.

If we compare bullets of the same weight at the same velocity, the Whelen uses lighter powder charges. If the rifles weigh the same, then the Whelen will have less recoil by all the common metrics of energy, momentum and velocity.

But there is another component of recoil that is harder to calculate but easy to feel at the shoulder, the jet effect of gases exiting the muzzle. The smaller bore diameter of the 338 combined with the larger powder charges leads to a higher gas effect.

The gas effect is why a 300 Weatherby has a more violent recoil feel than a 338 which has more violent recoil than a 35 Whelen or 9.3x62.

Having owned and shot all of these, that is how it feels to me as well and that is why I no longer own or shoot the 300 Weatherby and 338 Win Mag.

I can get the the same performance on game with cartridges that are more pleasant to shoot and more economical to reload.

To me the sweet spots for good performance on game without having excessive reooil are :

1. Light rifle 7x57, 308, 30-06

2. Medium rifle 35 Whelen, 9.3x62

3. Heavy rifle 416s

Tony Seth-Smith had a good run with his 275, 350, and 450 (double) Rigbys. Very close to your list here.

 

[CZDiesel]

One thing I notice in this thread is that those in favour of the 338WM forget about the extra diameter of the 358. Bigger hole lets more light in and more blood out. Now the fly in the ointment is the bigger the diameter the more surface area the greater the friction once inside the animal so for equal momentum and same design the larger cal should pull up quicker.

What you are also forgetting is that with modern bullet designs like the TBBC or Swift A-Frame that after initial bullet expansion and energy dump the difference between a 338Cal and a 358Cal bullet which is a mere 20/1000’s of an inch is almost nothing after expansion!
The 338 WinMag will always win in velocity and energy so this energy dump with the same expansion, within 1000’s, make the 338 the clear winner on dangerous game!
Go poll all the Alaskan guides, Montana Guides, Idaho Guides, or ask the Atkinson family who has guided all over the US NW and hunted all over Africa…
I know that you know how this poll will turn out!
I’ve read multiple times of CapeBuff being taken and hunted with the 338!
And when you add a 275gr or 300 gr to the 338WinMag then as a NewYorker would say…
FooorGet Abouuut it!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

What you are also forgetting is that with modern bullet designs like the TBBC or Swift A-Frame that after initial bullet expansion and energy dump the difference between a 338Cal and a 358Cal bullet which is a mere 20/1000’s of an inch is almost nothing after expansion!
The 338 WinMag will always win in velocity and energy so this energy dump with the same expansion, within 1000’s, make the 338 the clear winner on dangerous game!
Go poll all the Alaskan guides, Montana Guides, Idaho Guides, or ask the Atkinson family who has guided all over the US NW and hunted all over Africa…
I know that you know how this poll will turn out!
I’ve read multiple times of CapeBuff being taken and hunted with the 338!
And when you add a 275gr or 300 gr to the 338WinMag then as a NewYorker would say…
FooorGet Abouuut it!

@CZDiesel
A nice 35 cal 280 gn swift A frame at close to 2,600 fps out of the Whelen would shake buff up pretty bad.
A 310 gn Woodleigh at 2,455fps out of the Whelen yes you did read read correctly would be more than adequate. Not far behind a 375 with a 300 at 2,400 as @Rick HOlbert uses. That load gives over 4,000 fpe of muzzle energy and has the same SD as a 350gn .375 projectiles.
Not that I will be hunting DG anytime soon but know with that combination I could do it safely.
That big bonded round nose would dump a lot of energy into a buff but energy alone don't kill. Tissue destruction does.
Bob

 

[Rule 303]

What you are also forgetting is that with modern bullet designs like the TBBC or Swift A-Frame that after initial bullet expansion and energy dump the difference between a 338Cal and a 358Cal bullet which is a mere 20/1000’s of an inch is almost nothing after expansion!
The 338 WinMag will always win in velocity and energy so this energy dump with the same expansion, within 1000’s, make the 338 the clear winner on dangerous game!
Go poll all the Alaskan guides, Montana Guides, Idaho Guides, or ask the Atkinson family who has guided all over the US NW and hunted all over Africa…
I know that you know how this poll will turn out!
I’ve read multiple times of CapeBuff being taken and hunted with the 338!
And when you add a 275gr or 300 gr to the 338WinMag then as a NewYorker would say…
FooorGet Abouuut it!

I see you are forgetting a couple of things, the 338 was well established by the time the 35W was turned into a factory round and even then, Remington loaded it down. So no wonder the pro's didn't look at it. If reloading and using some modern powder like 223CFE there is stuff all in velocity between them.

My fly in the ointment comment was more a tounge in cheek comment. Should have put one of emoji's after it.

 

[CZDiesel]

@CZDiesel
A nice 35 cal 280 gn swift A frame at close to 2,600 fps out of the Whelen would shake buff up pretty bad.
A 310 gn Woodleigh at 2,455fps out of the Whelen yes you did read read correctly would be more than adequate. Not far behind a 375 with a 300 at 2,400 as @Rick HOlbert uses. That load gives over 4,000 fpe of muzzle energy and has the same SD as a 350gn .375 projectiles.
Not that I will be hunting DG anytime soon but know with that combination I could do it safely.
That big bonded round nose would dump a lot of energy into a buff but energy alone don't kill. Tissue destruction does.
BobView attachment 635650

Impressive! Very impressive! And as we know this would stand true for the 338…
Having said that and as I have said I want to build a short barrel Pre-64 Manlicher stocked rifle in the 35 Whelen! Love it!
It’s just if it were me, yes me and the chips were down I know in my heart the 338 WinMag is the better choice for me!
And there is seriously no discussion which one is a better long range round!

 

[Rule 303]

Impressive! Very impressive! And as we know this would stand true for the 338…
Having said that and as I have said I want to build a short barrel Pre-64 Manlicher stocked rifle in the 35 Whelen! Love it!
It’s just if it were me, yes me and the chips were down I know in my heart the 338 WinMag is the better choice for me!
And there is seriously no discussion which one is a better long range round!

I would be just as happy in a tight situation with a 310 grain pill at 2200 to 2400 FPS out of a Whelen as with a 300 grain pill at 2200 to 2400 FPS out of a 338Win.

I am not sure there are any powders that do for the 338 what CFE223 has done for the Whelen.

 

[CZDiesel]

I would be just as happy in a tight situation with a 310 grain pill at 2200 to 2400 FPS out of a Whelen as with a 300 grain pill at 2200 to 2400 FPS out of a 338Win.

I am not sure there are any powders that do for the 338 what CFE223 has done for the Whelen.

Oh I’m sure there is! Powders these days are incredible! Have you checked what the CFE223 will do in a 338?

 

[Saul]

@hoytcanon has a pretty nifty 375 Ruger necked down to 35 that seems to be the best of both worlds.

 

[cajunchefray]

Exactly my experience with the .338WM vs. the .35 Whelen. Less powder, less "rocket thrust" effect, less "felt recoil." I know the recoil formulas account for higher powder charge, and contribution to ft/lbs. of recoil, but I think IMHO that the "rocket effect" is a bit of an intangible in these formulas. Mayve it is in recoil velocity?

The principal difference in 35 Whelen and 338 win mag is felt recoil, that has been my experience.

If we compare bullets of the same weight at the same velocity, the Whelen uses lighter powder charges. If the rifles weigh the same, then the Whelen will have less recoil by all the common metrics of energy, momentum and velocity.

But there is another component of recoil that is harder to calculate but easy to feel at the shoulder, the jet effect of gases exiting the muzzle. The smaller bore diameter of the 338 combined with the larger powder charges leads to a higher gas effect.

The gas effect is why a 300 Weatherby has a more violent recoil feel than a 338 which has more violent recoil than a 35 Whelen or 9.3x62.

Having owned and shot all of these, that is how it feels to me as well and that is why I no longer own or shoot the 300 Weatherby and 338 Win Mag.

I can get the the same performance on game with cartridges that are more pleasant to shoot and more economical to reload.

To me the sweet spots for good performance on game without having excessive reooil are :

1. Light rifle 7x57, 308, 30-06

2. Medium rifle 35 Whelen, 9.3x62

3. Heavy rifle 416s

 

[cajunchefray]

Exactly my experience with the .338WM vs. the .35 Whelen. Less powder, less "rocket thrust" effect, less "felt recoil." I know the recoil formulas account for higher powder charge, and contribution to ft/lbs. of recoil, but I think IMHO that the "rocket effect" is a bit of an intangible in these formulas. Mayve it is in recoil velocity?

Should be "Maybe recoil velocity?"

 

[Rule 303]

Oh I’m sure there is! Powders these days are incredible! Have you checked what the CFE223 will do in a 338?

Nope and don't intend to as I don't have a 338, also what works for one might not work for the other. If there is a powder that will lift the 338 how come nobody has found it and using it. I wish I could get some CFE223.

@hoytcanon has a pretty nifty 375 Ruger necked down to 35 that seems to be the best of both worlds.

That would be good, I have a 35Sambar (358/325 WSM) and a 358/338 RUM. Yeah, I am bit of a 358Cal fan.