.318 Westley Richards vs. .333Jeffery vs. 9.5 M-S

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I have enjoyed reading the threads on classic hunting cartridges on the AH boards, so I decided to post one of my own.

Hypothetically, which classic rifle and chambering would you choose between the .318 Westley Richards, the .333 Jeffery, and the 9.5 Mannlicher-Schoenauer. All of the above took plenty of game in their day and could certainly still be used to great effect, but barring the obvious "I'll take them all", which would it be and why?(or would it be one of the countless other classic medium rifles like the .350 Rigby or the 400/360 Nitro)

Personally, I would have to give the slightest of edges to the .318 Westley Richards because of the ability to adapt 30-06 cases in a pinch, plus I've always like the styling of the Westley Richards' rifles. The 9.5 M-S would be a close second because the 1910 rifle is such a work of art and because if I were going to own a .333, the temptation of the .333 OKH would be too great.

I look forward to hearing from others who love classic rifles and calibers.
 

flatwater bill

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One reads little about the 333 Jeff. Despite the great sectional density of the bullet, the serious case taper and reputation for sticking in the chamber may have doomed it. 318 was best in a bolt gun, 350 Rigby with its rim, the king of the single shots. In the era of open sites, when shots were kept short, the slow moving 310 grain steel jacketed copper clad Rigby bullet was hard to beat.

If I ever go hunting with Wally Bell I'll use the 318, and with my good friend John Taylor, I'll use the 350. The only old timer I ever read of using the 9.5 was Charlie Kottar...one time...and he hated it..................................FWB
 

HendrikNZ

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Here are a few pics of my 9.5MS







Its had a hard life and has been restocked, but still a joy to shoot and very accurate with 235gn .375 bullets.
Would I like to add a 318 or a 333j to the collection - hell yes!
Would I trade one in for the other, not likely :)
 

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That is a gorgeous rifle. The old Mannlicher-Schonauers just ooze class, and the 1910 rifle is my favorite one of them. Thanks for sharing.
 

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One reads little about the 333 Jeff. Despite the great sectional density of the bullet, the serious case taper and reputation for sticking in the chamber may have doomed it. 318 was best in a bolt gun, 350 Rigby with its rim, the king of the single shots. In the era of open sites, when shots were kept short, the slow moving 310 grain steel jacketed copper clad Rigby bullet was hard to beat.

If I ever go hunting with Wally Bell I'll use the 318, and with my good friend John Taylor, I'll use the 350. The only old timer I ever read of using the 9.5 was Charlie Kottar...one time...and he hated it..................................FWB

@flatwater bill i think the op is talking about the Rigby .350 rimless which fired a 225 grn bullet.the one you mention is the older rimmed 400/350 that used the 310 grn bullet at lower velocity.

here is the info as after last night typing is too difficult today ;) as i have a rigby .350 bolt rifle i would have to go with that. of the three that are mentioned it would be the .318 westley..........but then again it would be kind of neat to have a .333jeff to go with my .404.....so sorry its all three as i havent had a 9.5 either and it would be rude to leave it out of the party :E Big Grin:
:D Beers:


The .350 Rigby and .350 Rigby No 2 are proprietary centerfire rifle cartridges developed by John Rigby & Company and introduced in 1908, intended for use as an all-round African hunting round. They fire a .358" diameter 225 grain bullet at an advertised speed of 2600 fps.[2]


Contents
[hide]


.350 Rigby[]
The .350 Rigby, also known as .350 Rigby Nitro Express, is a rimless bottlenecked magnum-length cartridge designed by Rigby for use in their Mauser bolt action sporting rifles.

Famous users include the elephant hunters Denys Finch Hatton[5] and John "Pondoro" Taylor. In his African Rifles and Cartridges, Taylor wrote of the .350 Rigby: "There is nothing spectacular about this cartridge; it has never had the write-up that the .318 and .375 Magnum get from time to time; nevertheless, it is a splendidly effective shell and at ranges of up to at least 150 yards kills as instantaneously as the .375 Magnum. In addition, it has an appreciably lighter recoil."[6]

.350 Rigby No 2[]
The .350 Rigby No 2 is the rimmed version of the .350 Rigby, intended for use in double rifles. The .350 Rigby No 2 shares the same case as the Rigby’s earlier .400/350 Nitro Express, but is the ballistic twin of the .350 Rigby, the .400/350 fired a heavier 310 grain projectile at around 2000 fps.[4]
 
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flatwater bill

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Spike ........thanks....you're probably right..........the one I referred to is the older cartridge, correctly called the 400/350 Rigby. It was around long before the others, so was called the 350 Rigby in the days before any confusion was possible. Now one must be more specific. Regarding the newer, faster cartridge: when I read about Pondoro shooting eland bulls on raking shots with the rimless' little 225 grain bullet I was amazed at the penetration he described. Personally, I would not have given up my old 310 grain bullet for more velocity in the days before the scope was commonly used as I never could hit much beyond 100 yards with open sites. Now that I understand the choices above, I would have to go with a 318........................Bill
 

Steve Steyr

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George Eastman (Eastman/Kodak) took a Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1910 9.5x57 MS on his 1926 safari to Kenya (and also to Tanganyika, I think). He shot lion, buffalo, and a wide assortment of PG with it.
He spoke of no problems and on his 1928 safari down the Nile to hunt in Uganda and the Congo, also chose the MS1910 9.5x57 as one of his main rifles.
The book, actually a compilation of his letter home, on the 1926 safari is great reading.
The compilation on the 1928 safari, put together in the 1980's, is "diluted" by those students who put the book together. They find the need to be politically correct and preface the book with apologies for Eastman's hunting and perceived poor treatment of the native carriers, gunbearers, and support staff.
 

flatwater bill

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Steve...........thanks for the post. George Eastman made his first safari to Africa at the tender age of 72, and thus has always been a hero of mine. I was unaware, however, that he used the 9.5. The book I have had all the information on rifles removed by the woodhippie republishers, as................."we have deleted all the inappropriate material on weapons...." Which was the only content I actually wanted to read in the book. Love the way history gets re-written by the folks that didn't like the way it went down. History was a great contest, often without rules, in which some people rose to the top. Perhaps they didn't know that they weren't supposed to........................I will re-read old George Eastman's letters and gain a new appreciation of the old man and his 9.5X57..................................FWB
 

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If memory serves, and sometimes it doesn't, Sir Alfred Pease, in his "Book of the Lion" (I hope that's the correct title) also uses a 9.5x57 ms. He also recommends a .256 Mannlicher for lions.
Bell used a .318 WR some but, due to faulty ammo, retired it from elephant hunting.
In all my reading of the early days of African hunting, I don't remember reading of anyone using the .333 Jeffrey. I have no idea how that relates to its overall popularity. With its 300 grain bullet and the attendant high sectional density, it should have done an incredible job of penetrating.
 

35bore

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35 whelen. ..

Sorry 350 rigby.
 
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35 whelen. ..

Sorry 350 rigby.


I wondered how long it would take for the 35 Whelen to make an appearance. A great American classic.

I expected to see the 338-06 as well.
 

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Hendrik

That is a beautiful rifle. Thanks for the great pictures. I looked at a 1910 in Mainly Hunting (shame that Internet trading pushed them to close) about seven years ago, I think, but it had a weird custom stock so I gave it a miss.
 

Donoman256

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I have Vickers.318 mauser rifle with a bolt mounted Lyman peepsight, these rifles also came out in .242 vickers-manton I have been unable to find any info on this rifle on the internet, its serial number is 3545 and has London proof marks. Maybe some members have have knowledge of these rifles
 

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@Donoman256 I handled a Vickers Mauser 98 actioned sporter in a local gun shop about ten years ago. It was an open-sighted rifle chambered in .30-06 with a matted receiver. It balanced well but I did not need another iron-sighted rifle at the time. I looked it up in Rifles of the World, 3rd edition by John Walter. He says on p. 326 that the actions were made by DWM prior to 1918. I get the impression that they were only produced in the 1920s.

If you post on one of the British web fora or search for Vickers’ history, you may discover a bit more information on these rifles.
 

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Since I own a couple 318 WR’s that would have to be my preference. I regret to say that I have yet to take either to Africa. One is a Westley Richard’s take down and the other a lovely Cogswell & Harrison built on an Enfield rather than Mauser action - only the Brits could build an elegant light rifle from a P-14 action. Both have taken whitetail - with both 250 gr Woodleigh solids and softs. The bullets may still be going.

 

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Love that P14 Cogswell & Harrison @Red Leg

Im trying to achieve something similar now with a 300 H&H on a P17 action.

I found an old, beat up P17 at a gunshow recently that looks like someone converted sometime in the 60's or 70's to 300 H&H.. there was no blue left on the gun at all.. but it also had no rust or pitting.. and the stock desperately needed some TLC.. but the figuring in the wood was really nice.. and the price was right so I took it home with the intent of making it a "project" rifle (took it home to include transfer fee, tax, etc.. for $250..)..

I removed the old brittle recoil pad and took the stock down to bare wood, and managed to remove all of the little dents and dings in it.. then put a new tru-oil finish on it, taking it to a semi-gloss.. then sent it over to the gunsmiths at McClellands in Dallas to have a red pachmayr decellerator installed and have the LOP adjusted..

and sent all the metal to a guy north west of Dallas that does really good old school high polish bluing and to have the bolt jeweled...

It wont end up nearly as nice as that C&H 318 WR.. but I am hopeful it at least ends up in the "very nice" category when I get it all back together later this week..

Ive never owned a P14 or P17 before.. I'm more of a 98 mauser kinda guy when it comes to old classic actions.. but.. I think this one might end up at the front of the safe rather than the back of it once its finished..
 

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Love that P14 Cogswell & Harrison @Red Leg

Im trying to achieve something similar now with a 300 H&H on a P17 action.

I found an old, beat up P17 at a gunshow recently that looks like someone converted sometime in the 60's or 70's to 300 H&H.. there was no blue left on the gun at all.. but it also had no rust or pitting.. and the stock desperately needed some TLC.. but the figuring in the wood was really nice.. and the price was right so I took it home with the intent of making it a "project" rifle (took it home to include transfer fee, tax, etc.. for $250..)..

I removed the old brittle recoil pad and took the stock down to bare wood, and managed to remove all of the little dents and dings in it.. then put a new tru-oil finish on it, taking it to a semi-gloss.. then sent it over to the gunsmiths at McClellands in Dallas to have a red pachmayr decellerator installed and have the LOP adjusted..

and sent all the metal to a guy north west of Dallas that does really good old school high polish bluing and to have the bolt jeweled...

It wont end up nearly as nice as that C&H 318 WR.. but I am hopeful it at least ends up in the "very nice" category when I get it all back together later this week..

Ive never owned a P14 or P17 before.. I'm more of a 98 mauser kinda guy when it comes to old classic actions.. but.. I think this one might end up at the front of the safe rather than the back of it once its finished..
As I am sure you know, after the First World War Remington produced quite a run of 30-06 rifles on P-17 actions. I wonder if your .3oo may have started life as one of those? They are brute strong. C&H built .404's on the same action and Roy Weatherby used them in the early days for some of his most powerful creations. Have the rear sight "wings" been milled off your receiver?
 

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As I am sure you know, after the First World War Remington produced quite a run of 30-06 rifles on P-17 actions. I wonder if your .3oo may have started life as one of those? They are brute strong. C&H built .404's on the same action and Roy Weatherby used them in the early days for some of his most powerful creations. Have the rear sight "wings" been milled off your receiver?

It is in fact one of the Remingtons.. The first thing I did when I got it home was pull the scope and mounts off the gun to check (the manufacturer and serial number on a P17 is on the top-front of the action, underneath where a front scope mount would be placed)..

For the price I was paying, I would have been fine with it being one of the "Eddystone" manufactured guns (seen by many as the most problematic and least valuable).. but was hoping it was either a Remington or Winchester marked rifle... and was very happy to see Big Greens name and a serial number consistent with the primary Remington plant...

The wings were milled off when the gun was first "sporterized". Whoever the smith was did a good job.. there are no tool marks present.. it looks like the wings never existed.

It will never be a C&H no matter how much time and money gets put into it.. but.. I think its going to end up being a very nice rifle when its complete.. and I couldnt resist an old war bird converted to sporting rifle in the the 300 H&H chambering.. especially not for $250 out the door.. (complete with a set of leupold rings and a leupold 1 piece base..)

When I get everything back from the smith next week I'll post up some pics..

The next thing I have to do is find some glass for it.. Im thinking either a Zeiss conquest or a Leupold in 3-9x40 is probably just about right for it..
 

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