Thoughts on the 9.3 x 62 Mauser

daga boy,
the 9.3/338 is almost dimensionally the same as the 9.3x64, and is therefore a ballistic twin.
to go to much more performance in 9.3 might come under the law of diminishing returns for all but special situations.
be aware that many 9.3 bullets are not designed for the speeds the x64 can produce.
bruce.
 
daga boy,
the 9.3/338 is almost dimensionally the same as the 9.3x64, and is therefore a ballistic twin.
to go to much more performance in 9.3 might come under the law of diminishing returns for all but special situations.
be aware that many 9.3 bullets are not designed for the speeds the x64 can produce.
bruce.
Thanks Bruce. I am aware that the 9.3 x 64 initially had a reputation for eating bullets. I cant imagine this would be the case with modern bullets like the A frame. What concerns me more is that I think my CZ550 , being as light as it is, will probably belt like beast if I were to add 200fps.
 
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:There is a reason you will not find much info , it is an extremely scarce caliber build/designed by the Germans ...like all the great calibers ever designed ..Only a German can design such great calibers ...

The 9.3 x 70mDWM is nothing like the 9.3 x 64 cal at all..it is a brute ...you will notice when you shoot your first 9.3 x 70 DWM keep in mind it is based directly on the 404 Jeffery /German version as a parent case...like the .338 Imperial Magnum as well that is why I want to build them..You will be shooting 300gn to 350 gn bullets to give you a longer barrel life and hunt buffalo, elephant eland , giraffe as well as hippo with it ..

Daga Boy, there are only three rifles in this caliber I know of the German General Herman Gouring, the Belgium gunsmith I received the reamer blueprint from and one member here on our forum who made his own re-loading dies and build the 9.3 x 70 DWM riflc on this caliber ..

Although in Germany and Europe there are drillings that includes this caliber in the drilling rifle as well..so it will not be too difficult to buy the re-loading dies from a company in Germany, the reamer I can let them release to you to make you one and the 404 Jeffery brass you can buy anywhere in the world.
 
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Thanks Bruce. I am aware that the 9.3 x 64 initially had a reputation for eating bullets. I cant imagine this would be the case with modern bullets like the A frame. What concerns me more is that I think my CZ550 , being as light as it is, will probably belt like beast if I were to add 200fps.
your posts on this subject seem to be in touch with reality.
the 9.3x64 does have significantly more recoil than the x62, and the 338 necked up would be exactly the same.
the 404 necked down to 9.3 would be more again.
if you want more from a 9.3 than the x64, in fact the 8mm rem mag would be a better case to use and in a pinch 375 or 300 h&h cases could be easily formed.
i cannot for the life of me see why the fact that herman goering had a 404 necked down is any reason whatsoever to own one, other than spending money on a headrush.
in fact goering was a self serving idiot who spent more time plundering artworks and living in luxury at the expense of good german civilians than thinking about his job.
yes swift bullets will handle the extra velocity of the x 64, and no the nosler partition will not.
these cartridges can use lighter bullets for smaller game, but the a 30 cal will do the same job easier and better.
if you need a bigger 9.3 than the x64 you probably really need a 40 cal.
i made my x64 similar weight to the average 270, as it was meant to be carried more than shot in steep country.
the trade off is that it takes a bit more effort to shoot well.
bruce.
 
Hallo Bruce, good to hear from you again. Bruce, a gunsmith from Berlin , Mr. Scewy build Herman Goering this rifle , double rifle in the 9.3 x 70 DWM . I did not know Herman Goering, although he seems to be a good hunter and loved great rifles . That is the side of Herman Goering I need to know , the war side is history , an era gone for ever,...no interest to me at all. History is written every day without fail...

My interest in the 9.3 x 70 DWM is purely from the fact that is based on the 10.75 x 73 S or also known as the 404 Jeffery parent case as is the second caliber , the .338 Imperial Magnum as well...

I choose to focus on this alone...I just referenced the Herman Goering scenario to indicate that this is a scarce caliber . Designed by Master German Gunsmiths who were and still is the best caliber/case designers /rifle designers still in our world today.

The only reason their rifles only sells in Europe is the fact that they are not the brilliant sales man the American and British rifle /caliber designers are ...August Schuler was the greatest caliber designer ...he just did not know how to market his rifles , or maybe he understood how the world demonized every German as a Natzi...
 
gert,
not all people think german cartridges are the best.
in fact some exist who thing most of their rounds, like many of their rifles have yet to catch up.
the old british cartridges also leave a lot to be desired in terms of modern practice, but fired better, heavier, bullets for really big game compared to many of the german ones.
we do not know that goering was a good hunter, just that he shot animals.
there are a few german things that do stand out as exceptional, including the mauser 98 action, and some of brenneke's cartridges.
bruce.
 
gert,
not all people think german cartridges are the best.
in fact some exist who thing most of their rounds, like many of their rifles have yet to catch up.
the old british cartridges also leave a lot to be desired in terms of modern practice, but fired better, heavier, bullets for really big game compared to many of the german ones.
we do not know that goering was a good hunter, just that he shot animals.
there are a few german things that do stand out as exceptional, including the mauser 98 action, and some of brenneke's cartridges.
bruce.
@bruce moulds
The 9.3x62 and the 7x64 were well ahead of their time and loaded to reasonable levels for the time. Even today the are ideal cartridges for medium to large game.
England had the 275 H& H magnum and the 375 around the same time along with the 350 Rigby magnum and the.
The USA answer was the 35 Whelen a nd a lot later on the 280 Remington.
To me this indicates the were all along similar lines and performance levels of the day and the U.S. only played catch up with the 280 Remington.
Marketing and the intervention of a couple of world wars stopped the German cartridges from gaining popularity i n the USA.
Norma came out with the 308 and 358 mags around the same time as the 300 and 338 mags. The 358 was the pick of the bunch but Norma did a shocking job of marketing it.
This is going to upset a lot of people but the USA has a long aversion of not invented here syndrome. If they didn't design and make it they were not interested.
During WW1 the American service me much preferred the M17 Enfield as a battle rifle over the Springfield. The U.S. department of war didn't listen and chose the Springfield.
Just my opinion.
Bob
 
Hi Gert. I cant find much on this calibre on the net - and what I can find is in German. What is the performance /how does it compare to the 9.3/338 , and does it fit into a medium length CZ550 action, or only in a full length magnum action? (The main appeal of the 9.3 for me is that it is handy - much more so than most .375's)
Hallo Daga Boy here is some info:/ Bruce some info about Herman Goring as well :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

Here are my notes on the 9.3x70 Magnum which is the DWM version (note the 9.3x70 RWS is a totally different cartridge).

++++++++++++ 9.3x70 Magnum (DWM)
This cartridge was originally introduced by DWM as case #569 and original DWM cases are rare. The case was based on the 404 Jeffery (10.75x73 : W110) and designed as direct competition to the 375 H&H Magnum.

Introduced in 1928, it was subsequently listed in the 1930’s DWM ballistic catalogs. Evidently designed by Brenneke (?), as so described in a 1932 article “Recent Developments in European Sporting Ammunition” in the ‘American Rifleman’ by Frantz Rosenberg. In this article he states : “The firm Brenneke has recently produced another tremendous cartridge which they call the ‘9.3x70 Holland & Holland’. It is a rimless cartridge for repeating rifles, with a longer case than the 9.3x62 and uses the same bullets, with one addition alone, the 300-gr ‘Ideal’ hollow-point boat tail.”

This reference to ‘Brenneke’ is debatable as it is the only reference to ‘Brenneke’ that I know of with respect to this cartridge, although there are very few references to this cartridge at all. Certainly it is not shown in three 1930’s Brenneke catalogs. The DWM case book has the words “Mauser (Holl. & Holl.)” written in the comments column for this case whereas all the other Brenneke cases that they produced had the Brenneke name attached. It was also evidently listed in a 1930 DWM Ballistics catalog as ‘H & H’. This reference to ‘Holland & Holland’ must refer to the rifle action as the case bears no resemblance to any H&H case type.

Five 9.3x70 loadings were shown in the 1930, 1934 and 1937 DWM Ballistics books “Patrone u.Schuß” :

17 g Starkmantel
18.5 g TM and VM
19.5 g Brenneke TIG,
as well as up to 5 different Laborierungen with 15 g TM (see Headstamp2 images).

A DWM factory drawing is known dated 28.6.28 but the headstamp drawing pasted over it shows a “P” code (1931). Originally this was a fairly short-lived caliber because it only appeared in DWM catalogs for a short period and did not survive WW2 with few specimens existing. DWM production of the 9.3x70 Brenneke cases is known in two hs variations: The earliest is probably the case without hs (HP bullet), specimens having come from an early (c1928-1930) DWM packet found in Australia. It is also known in SP loading with “pDWMp K 569 K” hs which represents 1931 and are rare. Whilst this cartridge was listed in a DWM 1934 Ballistics catalog, it was not shown in the full DWM 1934 or the 1939 price-list. This cartridge is now believed to have been produced by DWM only in the c1928-1931 period.

The only well-known rifle in “9.3x70” caliber was built by Ludwig Schiwy in Berlin for Hermann Goering and this rifle was described as a “Double Square Bridge Mauser Magnum (Speed) and also an 'H & H” (de Coux). An example of a 9.3x70 exists produced from 10.75x73 (404 Jeffery) with “DWM 555 KAL. 404” hs but with a slightly lower shoulder and noticeably longer neck that Heinz Held refers to as a “9,3 x 70 Schiwy”. He believes that this was the “wildcat” cartridge that was used in the 9.3x70 Mauser Rifle built by Berlin Gunsmith Ludwig Schiwy and famously given to Hermann Göring in 1940. The cases used were likely early DWM production c1924 which are very early to be for rifle produced much later ?

There is also another example with “DWM L L 10,75x73” hs produced from what are now believed to be post-WW2 404 Jeffery cases produced by DWM in 1954 which is very late for anything other than a homemade job and the case neck seems to show that (see image). This 9.3x70 dummy more closely resembles the c1928-1932 DWM production and according to Bill Woodin via a small sticker on the case, is of the type used in H. Goring’s rifle.

More recently c1990’s, Günter Frères and Harald Wolff (of HWM) have revived this cartridge and HWM is believed to have produced this case. [ED: unconfirmed, possibly no hs by Horneber] There are also examples made from 404 Jeffery with “KYNOCH .404” hs. These were loaded with 250gr Speer, 78gr IMR4064. The cases have dark annealing color in the neck/shoulder area and have a dark grey, almost black primer. Because of the annealing, these case don’t appear to be “home made”.

There is an example of an ex-Kynoch case which appears to have been modified to this case type and had the original hs milled off. This could be an early prototype or a later attempt at making this case when the supply was no longer available. The dimensions do vary slightly from the original DWM and modern EXPERT cases.

Even more recently (by 2001) this was produced by Horneber with a “EXPERT 9,3x70 MAG” hs for Reimer Johannsen GmbH. Johannsen evidently offered these with projectiles of 16,2 18.5 19.2 and 20,7g using five Loadings (all fmj ??). There are also examples without hs that have been described as “Gold Washed” but may in fact be CWS case (See images- Horneber or possibly old).

A DWM packet containing no hs examples is shown with the back label stating: “Bei Patronen, die nicht mit der unsererseits erprobten und festgesetzten Normalladung versehen sind, erhalten die Verpackungs- schachteln den Stempel Extraladung.” which translates as: "

“With cartridges that have not been tested by us to determine the normal charge, they receive the Extraload packing-box stamp.”

According to VÌt Krčma (CZ): “Very few arms chambered for this cartridge were made. Probably the best known rifle is that made by Berlin gunsmith Ludwig Schiwy. This weapon was in the possession of Hermann Göring. Göring was one of Hitler’s chief counsels and commander of the Luftwaffe. He was also Reichsjagermeister (Chief Hunter of the Empire). This title afforded him many privileges that he used to his advantage. His favourite hunting rifle was a calibre 8x75R. He also had a large collection of rifles, many custom made for him. One of the custom rifle builders that supplied him was Ludwig Schiwy. A plaque on the rifle states that it was presented to Goring for Christmas 1940. The initials “F.G” are also on the rifle. The theory is that the original owner of the rifle was Franz Gurtner - imperial Minister of Justice in years 1932 - 1941. Gurtner was right-wing extremist and a long standing friend of Goering’s.”

If Heinz Held is correct and the rifle concerned was chambered for a different case type than the 9.3x70 Magnum then that would differ from conventional opinion. The “DWM 555 KAL. 404” hs with serif lettering and no date codes is probably the earliest DWM production of the 10.75x73 and so would be c1924 which is fairly early (and scarce) to be used for a mid/late 1930’s to 1940 “Wildcat”. It is quite possible that this cartridge was an original prototype for the 9.3x70 Magnum of 1928. The only way to be sure would be to see which case type properly chambers in that Schiwy Mauser

hello
if i understand the 9.3x70 DWM is based on 404 jeffry case ,so it different to 9.3x70 RWS who look a elongated 9.3x62

good thing to different the two
 
More info:

9.3 X 70 MAGNUM​

Assumed to be designed by Brenneke (although unconfirmed) and introduced by DWM in 1928 as a competitor to the British 375 H&H cartridge and based on the 10.75x73 (404 Jeffery) case. The original DWM 569 cartridges are exceedingly rare. The specimen below is a proof loading with rim notch. During the early years of the 20th century there was a mini "sporting arms race" between the British and the Germans in Africa, as both had a fairly large presence in East Africa and both competing for the growing big game safari industry in Africa. The British prided themselves in their high quality double rifles, while the Germans had their drillings, which were not a huge success in Africa, but they competed by way of the very high quality Mauser bolt action rifle. The German workhorse was the 9.3x62 but, although a very good cartridge was still considered under powered for Africa where an outfitter might need a single rifle for plains game but also to provide protection to a client should the situation arise. The 9.3x70 Magnum was the only larger powered cartridge that was produced out of a batch of German experimental calibers based on the 404 Jeffery in an attempt to create a rifle to fulfill that role. Herman Goering owned a rifle in this caliber that was made by Berlin gunsmith Ludwig Schiwy. The 9.3x70 Magnum suffered the same fate as most other German sporting cartridges at the start of WW2.

9.3%20X%2070%20MAGNUM%20DWM.jpg
9.3%20X%2070%20MAGNUM%20DWM%20FULL.jpg


9.3X70%20MAG.jpg
9.3X70%20MAG%20FULL.jpg



The bottom specimen is a modern manufactured cartridge by Horneber for Reimer Johanssen GmbH Germany
 
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Thanks for pointing that out Fede, there seem to be a few articles on the 9.3x70 (Hatari times etc) - also providing the Trademark date - I knew it was about 2000 but it’s great to get it accurate.

FYI,here are some images of the 9.3x70 DWM & Schiwy:

37fb90800bea45de82b2deb3fdc76e4698ffc21f_2_690x483.jpeg



The left 3 are DWM (Heinrich Kohlmann, Nils Olsson, Peter Petrusic), then 2 loaded “EXPERT” cases from Horneber (Dixon, Kohlmann), a milled hs from Kynoch case (Olsson, which was probably made by Norma and would correspond to the one Fede mentioned), a “no hs” by Horneber and two cartridges that have been called “9.3x70 Schiwy” and are not the same ?? First one from Heinz Held and the second one from a Pete de Coux Auction list
 
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The 9.3 x 70 - largely unknown and yet ideally suited for long shots at heavy game

Hansgeorg Arndt



From Roland Zeitler
While the 9.3x62, 9.3x64 and 9.3x74R cartridges are well known, very few hunters can do anything with the 9.3x70 caliber designation. The DWM cartridge factory in Karlsruhe was involved in the development of cartridges based on the .404 Jeffery case (alias 10.75x73) in the 1920s. Calibers such as 7.65x70, 7.65x77, 8x73 and the 9.3x70 were developed from the basic case.

Of the cartridges mentioned, only the 9.3x70 went into series production. The cartridge with a groove, a 70-millimeter case and a 30-degree shoulder has been manufactured by DWM since the late 1920s and equipped with bullets from 15.0 to 18.59 grams. Although the cartridge can still be accommodated in standard 98 systems with some tricks, it is a typical caliber for the Mauser Magnum system.

This old caliber was revived by Harald Wolff (Belgium) and Günter Frères. Johannsen offers five loads (including one full jacket) with bullets of 250, 285, 300 and 320 grains. Twelve cartridges cost between 122 and 134 marks. Loading with the 300 Grains Swift-A-Frame projectile produced a V5 of 825 meters / second from the test weapon, which arithmetically results in an energy of 6616 joules. Depending on the storey loaded, the energy values range from around 6500 to almost 7000 joules at the mouth. For comparison, the 9.3x64 creates around 5800 joules.
The 9.3x70 is suitable for long shots at heavy game. It is ideal for bears, elk, elk, lion and plains game. But it is also a good choice for red deer and wild boar.

Hansgeorg Arndt

15% greater capacity than a .375H&H would be just about identical to the capacity of a .375H&H Ackley Improved, which is a couple gr. more than a .375 Weatherby.

C.O.L - for 9,3x70 is 89mm. It will quite easily fit in a Brno ZG-47 action

Gentlemen,

Johannsen in Germany makes custom rifles in this caliber.
(www.johannsen-jagd.de)

Cases are not listed in the Horneber standard catalogue (http://www.huelsen-horneber.de/frame.html) but he produces also cases for custom orders.
If we find enough people interested in this caliber, we can make a collect order...
I would step in with both feet! :)

Energy level:
Assumed that the .375 H&H is equal to 9,3x64, then the 9,3x70 should be similar to the .375 Weatherby.

And now with the 320grs bullets in 9,3mm from Degol (or Woodleigh?) available!

best regards
Rolf

From what I have heard "it was Gorings favorite caliber" is a figment of Harold Wolfs imagination! Anyway it is a thumper, I have used it in Namibia. Belongs to a german PH friend who is passionate about guns. Shot a very nice 41"+ gemsbok and a good springbok with it last year. His gun is a new rifle made by Johansen in germany I believe. He reloads for it using 404 brass.
 
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your posts on this subject seem to be in touch with reality.
the 9.3x64 does have significantly more recoil than the x62, and the 338 necked up would be exactly the same.
the 404 necked down to 9.3 would be more again.
if you want more from a 9.3 than the x64, in fact the 8mm rem mag would be a better case to use and in a pinch 375 or 300 h&h cases could be easily formed.
i cannot for the life of me see why the fact that herman goering had a 404 necked down is any reason whatsoever to own one, other than spending money on a headrush.
in fact goering was a self serving idiot who spent more time plundering artworks and living in luxury at the expense of good german civilians than thinking about his job.
yes swift bullets will handle the extra velocity of the x 64, and no the nosler partition will not.
these cartridges can use lighter bullets for smaller game, but the a 30 cal will do the same job easier and better.
if you need a bigger 9.3 than the x64 you probably really need a 40 cal.
i made my x64 similar weight to the average 270, as it was meant to be carried more than shot in steep country.
the trade off is that it takes a bit more effort to shoot well.
bruce.
Thanks Bruce, that is really very useful. My thinking has been motivated in part by the fact that i regularly shoot .338WM and also own a .458WM which I use from time to time, so I have the necessary brass. I can also get pretty much as much free or cheap 375H&H brass as I could ever want. Ability to fit into a standard medium action without major mods is also a consideration. Given the popularity of the 9.3 x 62 and the scarcity of the x 64, I can see the 9.3/338 catching on in our neck of the woods as it gives a bit more flexibility than the x 62 package. I am also not really a fan of "weird" calibres.
BTW, I agree with you regarding the Norma cartridges, especially the .358. Great cartridge, but I think the .375 rule and popularity of the .375H&H in particular was against it.
 
the x64 and ballistic twin 9.3/338 might well be the best all round 9.3 case capacity.
it can be loaded back to x62 levels, while at full potential is equal to the 375 h&h.
in a 30/06 length action.
just remember to use suitable bullets for full power loads.
please keep us in touch as you take the journey should you do so.
bruce.
 
the x64 and ballistic twin 9.3/338 might well be the best all round 9.3 case capacity.
it can be loaded back to x62 levels, while at full potential is equal to the 375 h&h.
in a 30/06 length action.
just remember to use suitable bullets for full power loads.
please keep us in touch as you take the journey should you do so.
bruce.
I will do so. I am great fan of the Swift A frame and would like to be able to launch their 300gr bullet (or maybe a slightly lighter monolithic) at 2300-2400fps without powder compression or pressure issues. I think this should be achievable based on what I get from my .338 loads.
 
daga boy,
if your 338 case has similar capacity to the 9.3x64, you can get 2500+ from a 300 gn swift with h4350.
you will have to compress it to get enough in for that, but it is safe if you work up.
this in not a load for light rifles.
bruce.
 

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