Got the CZ blues

Earle said:

Well guy's, now i feel a little better. Picked up the box of Nosler 500g solids and put the box thru the cycle 3 times. 60 rounds and not a hiccup. I know that proves very little and i made arrangements to get the gun to a smith that has CZ experience, but at least i know all is not lost. Thanks again one and all.

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Actually, what this proves is that the magazine feeding rails and ramp are machined specifically for the SAAMI specifications of the cartridge for which the rifle is chambered. As it should be.

I am therefore not surprised that this CZ 550 works flawlessly with SAAMI specs. ammo. This is what it was designed to do.

A .458 Win is supposed to be 3.34" long. This is what the feed cycle is designed to handle. Cartridges loaded to shorter or longer overall length are liable to have feeding issues, especially if they are loaded with blunt/flat nose bullets.

Feeding issues with ammo other than the one designed for the rifle is not a CZ issue per se. It happens with boring regularity with any rifle make. If you doubt this, try to cycle .458 Win ammo loaded with flat nose bullets in most rifles built on standard length K98 actions, including the most prestigious British names you can think of. Chances are you will be shocked.

The reason why such issue rarely happen with most more recent designs is that they are push feed. The exact timing of the extractor/feed rail/feed ramps interaction is not required when push feeding, as they are with control round feed.

In this specific case, the problem is compounded by the fact that the CZ 550 is a true magnum length action, actually long enough for not only the .375 H&H family of cartridges but the .416 Rigby family of cartridges, while the .458 Win is a short magnum cartridge. This mismatch is bound to exasperate the feeding issue.

I personally do not understand why CZ continued to offer the .458 Win in their magnum action since the .458 Lott has achieved at least equivalent if not better distribution. The standard action would be much more appropriate to the .458 Win, but they probably do because the magnum length will still work with SAAMI spec ammo and it allows production standardization.

Whether you want CRF or not is your choice. Oceans of ink have been spilled on this, and dozens of threads are addressing this, so I will not repeat ad nauseum here. To each their own...

Yes, CZ 550 actions are rough from the factory, additional oceans of ink have also been spilled on this, and dozens of threads are addressing this. Again, I will not repeat ad nauseum here.

People can still make their own determination whether they are interested in a $1,000 factory CZ 550 + $900 AHR Upgrade #1 = total $1,900, to own the functional equivalent of a $10,000 Mauser 98 Magnum or Rigby-stocked M98...

I continue to believe that the CZ 550 well understood (hint: avoid short cartridges in long actions) and well finished/polished (hint: AHR Upgrade #1, or really easy do-it-yourself afternoon project for people in the know) is the best value for the money in the DG market.

Sure the Win 70 is smoother because it is looser (not necessarily a better option), but the Win 70 will never have the long list of what makes the CZ 550 worth spending $900 to finish/polish it: true magnum length action; double square bridge integral scope bases; 5 rounds capacity; all steel bottom; integral rear sights island; barrel band front sight; etc.

Yes, there are other options... To each their own...

As to the point regarding testing a DG rifle before taking it to the field, I will only repeat here what has been said numerous times by numerous people in numerous thread: one would be a fool to hunt DG with any rifle - repeat: ANY rifle, as in: from ANY maker - that is has not been thoroughly tested with the exact ammo intended for the hunt...

Earle said:

My 416Rigby operates flawlessly and it's a 550. Go figure.

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Hopefully the above post "figures" it

Mainly: proper length cartridge in proper length action...

Allow me to give a different example involving neither CRF nor CZ. My .257 Wby Mk V is built on the same 9 tenons full-length action as my .340 Wby Mk V. The .340 never misfeeds. Even though the 2 cartridges have the same case for most of their length (both are built on a blown out .375 H&H case), because the .257 Wby is a short magnum in a long action, I must be very careful when I load it, otherwise it will misfeed. If a short cartridge is loaded too far forward in a long action with feeding rails designed for a long cartridge, or if it slides forward in the magazine under recoil, in many cases it will misfeed...

Additionally, straight wall cartridges - especially the short ones - have always been more difficult to handle through the CRF feed cycle, than bottle-necked cartridges...

You will be just fine with SAAMI specs ammo, but do not be surprised if very wide meplat solids hit an edge here or there in the feed cycle: it happens with many rifles.

You are doing the right thing by testing: there is not such things as a DG-ready out of the box rifle. Even rifles that have been 100% reliable with round nosed ammo can jam when fed truncated nose ammo (e.g. "Best of London" .458 Win built on standard length K98 actions, but this was also true with my Mauser 66...) so nothing should be taken for granted and the exact rifle/ammo combo must be tested thoroughly (i.e. full mag, fast cycling, etc. etc.).

The rifle in question is going to a shop that has been around since 1934, and has unlimited experience with these guns. Told me it was a common problem with an easy fix. 3 week turn around. I am happy. Truth be told, i will be perfectly happy as long as i am confident that it functions perfectly with 500g ammo. I have no interest in using 450s or 480s in this rifle. As stated earlier, the only reason i tried the 450s was because i got a good deal on them and wanted the brass. Kinda like a rifle that is sub moa with 200g bullets, but patterns 175s like a shotgun. Solution? Don't shoot 175s.

Earle, why don't you just pull the bullets and reload the cases with one that will feed properly? I had similar troubles with my CZ as well, getting it "smoothed up" by a competent gunsmith is probably a good idea just the same.

For what it’s worth and since it was brought up, the SAAMI length specs for the 458 WM cartridge are: 3.280” minimum and 3.340” maximum.

That explains a lot. The 450s i have average 3.148", well below even the minimum specs. Perhaps the fault lies not with the rifle, but with undersized ammo. No matter, as i plan on using 500s only.

Earle said:

Told me it was a common problem with an easy fix. 3 week turn around. I am happy.

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Yes indeed it is. Truth be told it is amazing what a few rounded edges strategically located and some basic deburring/polishing will do to a CZ 550. Ask Rigby of London: they used ZKK 602 / CZ 550 actions for decades to build their rifles before Mauser resumed production of the M98 in 2015.

I appreciate that some do not want to get involved with that, but I can't help seeing the CZ 550 as a diamond in the rough. Rough out of the factory it is, but a diamond it is, and for $1,000 the value/potential it offers is a steal...

Earle said:

As stated earlier, the only reason I tried the 450s was because i got a good deal on them and wanted the brass.

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Yes indeed. I do the same with Serbian Prvi Partizan PPU ammo. I would not shoot their older design cup & core bullets at African game, but they are perfect to practice and the practice is almost free since their ammo cost barely more than most brands of brass, and their brass is excellent.

Earle said:

That explains a lot. The 450s i have average 3.148", well below even the minimum specs. Perhaps the fault lies not with the rifle, but with undersized ammo.

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That was indeed entirely my point in my above post

It is amazing the difference that 0.1" in overall length, or for that matter 0.05" in case diameter, will make in a Mauser system feed cycle.

Many "gunsmiths" and factories have forgotten (or have never known?) that in the glory days Mauser offered no less than 20 (yes: twenty) different actions tailored to specific cartridge cases length, shape & diameter. This was no accident. The feed cycle on these actions was bet-your-life-on-it reliable. Sadly, modern "one size fits all" has destroyed a lot of this built-in reliability...

I suspect that CZ is often discussed in this context because they have continued to offer at a time or another a large number of DG calibers with a wide variety of cartridge shapes in their magnum action (.300 Win, .375 H&H, .404 Jeffery, .416 Rem, .416 Rigby, .458 Win, .458 Lott, .450 Rigby, .505 Jeffery, .500 Gibbs, etc.). All these different case lengths, diameters, shapes, shoulder locations & angles, belt or not, etc. will work in the same action, but feeding rails geometry (length & width) and surfaces are critical, and it is indeed a sad fact that CZ antiquated machinery has failed to make 100% of their rifles 100% reliable out of the factory when they moved from ZKK hand finish to CZ no hand finish.

I also suspect that a large reason why the Win 70 has a better reputation, aside from being better made in the USA with CNC machinery, and being smoother because is it looser (not exactly an engineering plus), is that their Safari Express line was only offered in two chambering: .375 H&H and .458 Win, for over 50 years, and recently .416 Rem. It is a lot easier with only 2 or 3 calibers in a shorter action to get to decent feeding, although not every Win 70 .458 Win was reliable out of the box...

I own no less than 3 Win 70 and love them, but you cannot build (easily) a .416 Rigby, .450 Rigby, .505 Jeffery, .500 Gibbs, etc. on a Win 70, and there is a darn good reason why Winchester do not offer it in .458 Lott from the factory, as some who have rechambered their Win 70 .458 Win to Lott have discovered to their sorrow...

Anyhow, I am not making excuses for CZ; I believe they killed the golden egg goose when they decided to cut labor costs between the ZKK 602 and the CZ 550 (the same action with some detail changes such as trigger or cocking piece shroud). I personally think that the market would have happily paid for the $100 or $200 they saved by eliminating manual deburring and feed fit & finish, and they would have "owned" a huge $2,000 DG rifle market segment, as opposed to loosing the $1,500 DG rifle market segment...

But because I remember begging to no avail to find a .416 Rigby length magnum Mauser action in the 1980's, I have a soft spot for the potential that the ZKK 602 / CZ 550 represents with a little bit of TLC...

One would say that it is a moot point now with Mauser producing again their M98 magnum, or Granite Mountain and a few others machining whatever action you could possibly want, but these are $10,000 rifles, and I continue to see incredible value in the $1,000 CZ 550 + $900 AHR upgrade #1....

Do you need a CRF Mauser system action to hunt DG today ? No, you don't ! Many push feed more recent designs (Sako, Remington, Blaser, etc. etc.) will do just fine...

Will the .416 Rem (and other similar) do everything the .416 Rigby does ? Yes ! Albeit at significantly higher pressure...

Do you need the .458 Lott to stop a Buff ? No, you don't ! Modern fresh .458 Win ammo will do it very well...

But for those romantics in love with the .416 Rigby, or those who prefer the full length Lott, and those romantics who still have a hard time thinking about Africa without a traditional Mauser system DG rifle, and who cannot afford a $10,000 Rigby, I predict a long life to the CZ 550 on the used rifle market...

I picked up a CZ-550 several years back factory chambered in .375 H&H. I mounted a scope using Talley rings and could not get a bore sight to save my life. I took the rifle to the range for verification because there was no way it could not be that far off. It was.

I made a call to Talley and I was told that the only rifle scope that they were aware of that had enough adjustment to zero on some of the CZ-550's in .375 and larger calibers would be a Leupold 1.5-5. Unsatisfactory.

I made a call to the shop that handled warranty work for CZ and they told me to send the rifle in and the problem would be corrected. The rifle made it back home in a couple of months with a test target. No explanation of the work done. Problem solved.

If you do not have enough windage or elevation to zero it could be something other than your ring/scope set up for sure.

That was a problem in some of the CZ 550s, machining for the ring bases was off. Quality Control was lacking. But I have a M70 Classic in 416 Rem and as nice a rifle as it is, the CZ action machined from forged billet steel makes it seem like a file cabinet compared to a bank vault. The CZ action is so solid, no wiggle in the bolt yet smooth as glass (once it's been tuned a bit). I think it's overkill for a 375 H&H (too heavy) but for a 458 Lott, 450 Rigby or 500 Jeffery it's an amazing rifle

On my 550 from around 2003 I can pop the scope off and put it on my 416 and 458, recently purchased, everything lines up like it was on the same action.

I wonder if there is any problem with the barrel recoil lug. If that could torque down the barrel somehow. I wonder if anyone has noticed a huge difference when swapping out the stock for the bell and Carlson , that does not use that screw. I hadn't fired my Lott before I swapped the stock out. I suppose if every stock wasnt exact it could pull the barrel down a bit.

I have recently been considering the purchase of a CZ 550 in 458 Win Mag. I would prefer one in a Lott but there are none that I can find in the UK that are for sale (I have only found 3 458 Win Magsin total). I have read about the feed issues with the short 458 WM cases in the magnum length action. Would poor feeding typically be solved or at least improved by rechambering to a 458 Lott or would this open a can of worms. Has anyone had their CZ550 rechambered to Lott and did this cause any feeding problems?

If you can find one in 450 Rigby, you can load it down to 458 Lott or 458 Win Mag levels. A much sexier cartridge

Funny u should say that. I have two 416s and the older one is going to become a 450 this coming winter. At least it will as long as funds don't dry up. LOL
On an added note, just once again a thank you to all who have taken the time to respond to my initial whine. Thanks again.

colorado said:

If you can find one in 450 Rigby, you can load it down to 458 Lott or 458 Win Mag levels. A much sexier cartridge

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One Day... said:

Actually, what this proves is that the magazine feeding rails and ramp are machined specifically for the SAAMI specifications of the cartridge for which the rifle is chambered. As it should be.

I am therefore not surprised that this CZ 550 works flawlessly with SAAMI specs. ammo. This is what it was designed to do.

A .458 Win is supposed to be 3.34" long. This is what the feed cycle is designed to handle. Cartridges loaded to shorter or longer overall length are liable to have feeding issues, especially if they are loaded with blunt/flat nose bullets.

Feeding issues with ammo other than the one designed for the rifle is not a CZ issue per se. It happens with boring regularity with any rifle make. If you doubt this, try to cycle .458 Win ammo loaded with flat nose bullets in most rifles built on standard length K98 actions, including the most prestigious British names you can think of. Chances are you will be shocked.

The reason why such issue rarely happen with most more recent designs is that they are push feed. The exact timing of the extractor/feed rail/feed ramps interaction is not required when push feeding, as they are with control round feed.

In this specific case, the problem is compounded by the fact that the CZ 550 is a true magnum length action, actually long enough for not only the .375 H&H family of cartridges but the .416 Rigby family of cartridges, while the .458 Win is a short magnum cartridge. This mismatch is bound to exasperate the feeding issue.

I personally do not understand why CZ continued to offer the .458 Win in their magnum action since the .458 Lott has achieved at least equivalent if not better distribution. The standard action would be much more appropriate to the .458 Win, but they probably do because the magnum length will still work with SAAMI spec ammo and it allows production standardization.

Whether you want CRF or not is your choice. Oceans of ink have been spilled on this, and dozens of threads are addressing this, so I will not repeat ad nauseum here. To each their own...

Yes, CZ 550 actions are rough from the factory, additional oceans of ink have also been spilled on this, and dozens of threads are addressing this. Again, I will not repeat ad nauseum here.

People can still make their own determination whether they are interested in a $1,000 factory CZ 550 + $900 AHR Upgrade #1 = total $1,900, to own the functional equivalent of a $10,000 Mauser 98 Magnum or Rigby-stocked M98...

I continue to believe that the CZ 550 well understood (hint: avoid short cartridges in long actions) and well finished/polished (hint: AHR Upgrade #1, or really easy do-it-yourself afternoon project for people in the know) is the best value for the money in the DG market.

Sure the Win 70 is smoother because it is looser (not necessarily a better option), but the Win 70 will never have the long list of what makes the CZ 550 worth spending $900 to finish/polish it: true magnum length action; double square bridge integral scope bases; 5 rounds capacity; all steel bottom; integral rear sights island; barrel band front sight; etc.

Yes, there are other options... To each their own...

As to the point regarding testing a DG rifle before taking it to the field, I will only repeat here what has been said numerous times by numerous people in numerous thread: one would be a fool to hunt DG with any rifle - repeat: ANY rifle, as in: from ANY maker - that is has not been thoroughly tested with the exact ammo intended for the hunt...

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One Day... said:

Sure the Win 70 is smoother because it is looser (not necessarily a better option), but the Win 70 will never have the long list of what makes the CZ 550 worth spending $900 to finish/polish it: true magnum length action; double square bridge integral scope bases; 5 rounds capacity; all steel bottom; integral rear sights island; barrel band front sight; etc.

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Exactly and well said. I wanted all of those features. The double square bridge is so nice for mounting QD rings/scopes with nothing left in the way to use the open sights. Five rounds down is also very attractive for my use backing up brown bear hunters. In 2018, I had the occasion to need all five of those rounds.

SRvet said:

I have recently been considering the purchase of a CZ 550 in 458 Win Mag. I would prefer one in a Lott but there are none that I can find in the UK that are for sale (I have only found 3 458 Win Magsin total). I have read about the feed issues with the short 458 WM cases in the magnum length action. Would poor feeding typically be solved or at least improved by rechambering to a 458 Lott or would this open a can of worms. Has anyone had their CZ550 rechambered to Lott and did this cause any feeding problems?

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I believe that even the .458 Lott directly from CZ starts out as a WM. The barrel has original markings printed as .458 WM and the Lott marking is added and obviously an add on.

That said, directly from CZ, mine had jamming issues that Wayne corrected. It feeds and cycles every brand and bullet weight I have tried now. From what I’ve heard, not all Lotts from the factory will jam. However, before buying one, you might see if you can find a UK gunsmith that could work on it for you, if needed. Wayne doesn’t really disclose everything he does to fix them but he probably would talk to your local gunsmith and tell him since you are across the pond.

Earle said:

Hi y'all. Hope i'm posting in the right section. Got a brand new 550 chambered in 458wm that i took to the range for the first time Monday. Immediate woe's. As can be seen in the pics, it does not like 450g bullets. Jams every time. I know a lot of you guy's have extensive experience with CZs and hope someone has some suggestions. Try 500g bullets? Take it to a "smith"? Call CZ? Give up and buy a M70 (LOL). Any thots will be appreciated as i am at a loss on how to proceed. My 416Rigby operates flawlessly and it's a 550. Go figure.

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Just a rambling thought....what's your OAL for this combo, 3.125? If a tad short due ( vs 3.34-3.36") to your crimp ring, suspect it will catch. These look like Speer or Remington 400's and I had similar issues in my R8, solution was to chamber slowly from the mag to give it time to "Position" itself for a straight shot to the chamber, works, AOK for target practice for me, so not an issue. My 420-450 CEB's loads have no issues as I can maintain the the 3.34-3.36" OAL and feeds with no issues with normal cycling. YMMV.

Just my 2 cents before sending the rifle off and spending $$ and down time. If you are set in using these projectiles for a hunt, guess you have no choice.

Pulled a couple bullets from the batch i bought, and sure enough they are 405g, not 450s like the nice man that sold them to me online assured me they were. Think i will pull them all, get some 500g of some barnes, nosler, etc and start from scratch. Then i'll know for sure what i have.

Earle said:

Pulled a couple bullets from the batch i bought, and sure enough they are 405g, not 450s like the nice man that sold them to me online assured me they were. Think i will pull them all, get some 500g of some barnes, nosler, etc and start from scratch. Then i'll know for sure what i have.
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Good move...probably Remington SP's due to the weight. Good luck moving forward.

I think so. If i can get the rifle in this week to the shop and have it smoothed up, and get some 500s loaded up to the proper col, i figure there is a good chance the current issue's will be rectified and i'll have the rifle i want.

limpopo said:

Good move...probably Remington SP's due to the weight. Good luck moving forward.

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Earle said:

Pulled a couple bullets from the batch i bought, and sure enough they are 405g, not 450s like the nice man that sold them to me online assured me they were. Think i will pull them all, get some 500g of some barnes, nosler, etc and start from scratch. Then i'll know for sure what i have.

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Yep that is definitely plinking practice bullet/ammo. But it should also function in a 458 WM. The double crimp groove is a dead giveaway about the bullet- 405gr Remington designed for 45-70s. Hope the issue gets resolved.