Compressing Powder

fourfive8 said:

Sorry about that CoElkHunter, was thinking about Dr Ray's buffalo hunt in Australia, his thoughts about the various powders and typing about your using up the 748

But the same principles apply to both the WM and Lott. My experience with load development for the WM and for the Lott (450 Watts) indicate no real need to compress charges much if any and certainly no need to compress for using up powder like the 748 for practice with cheap bullets. But, I'd still avoid temperature sensitive powders like H335 for developing a serious DG load in the WM. IMO well worth trying one or two of the Extreme powders. You do have some room to adjust seating depth if your rifle is like most WMs with a fairly long throat. I'd certainly try both Varget and Benchmark in your WM. Depending on type of bullet, you could very well be able to seat out farther, have very little or no compression and still crimp into a groove. Some bullets have the crimp groove well down the shank for exactly that purpose... to allow for extra powder capacity as is needed in the WM. And the banded Barnes automatically have that option.

Click to expand...

Great idea, I will try that! It’s a CZ rifle, so it shouldn’t be a problem. Thanks!

Wyatt Smith said:

I know a man who vibrates them with an electric razor.

Click to expand...

I use an old electric toothbrush, just touch the side of the case with it.

This thread brings back my earliest memories of reloading. Of course any of those earliest load notes long since pitched. Two of my earliest lessons based on over pressure events involved case length and ball powder temperature sensitivity. Neither involved catastrophic failure but both provided a stern warning. Since then I pay attention to case length and using the best, most forgiving powder for the job. That was the period 1968 to 1970. Both events of my doing and one coincidental by a friend, turned out to be blessings in disguise!

At that time H414 had just hit the market and was certainly budget friendly. I had an old Win M54 bolt gun in 30-06 and young enough to be entranced by the more and faster the better ballistic folly . Summer temps were topping 110+. One afternoon I loaded a few max minus one grain loads of H414 under a common 180 gr bullet in the 06 and headed to the gravel pit/range. This load had proven to be a good one for me the previous couple of years. 1st shot jammed the bolt pretty tight requiring knocking it open with a 2x4. Obvious gross over pressure load! Coincidentally a friend really jammed his Rem pump in 30-06 with a similar load, but using WW760, not a weak later and in similar hot conditions. Yep even as young and dumb as I was then, I recognized a pattern, a real clue . Both of those loads which had been perfectly fine mannered in those rifles previously and most recently not 2 months earlier and only 25 degrees cooler had suddenly turned nasty!! From that summer in 1970 til now I have avoided ball powders.... much less having any desire to compress a ball powder (sorry ball powder fans just my thing and opinion). From that day til now I’ve loaded conservatively, always used a chronograph when they became available for load development, payed no attention to ballistic hype/wanna be hunting sniper hype from anonymous sources, loaded for reliability for all conditions and have never had a single hiccup after many thousands of rounds both at the range and in the field from AK to Africa. Anecdotal? Maybe, but I’ll stick to it.

And thanks to our Aussie friends we now have all those great Extreme powders to choose from... IMO, hard to beat for developing the most reliable hunting loads ever available.

And by coincidence about 1969 or 70 was my first direct experience with the 458 WM. Of course no one really had access to a chronograph or the variety of powders, bullets or even published data we have today. An acquaintance approached me to help him develop some 458 WM loads. He had just purchased a very sleek and nice feeling custom 458 based on a M98 with a standard length bbl of probably 24". After the ball powder experience in my 06 and that of my friend's, I went straight to two of the available extruded stick powder options that seemed reasonable to try. The bullet options were very limited. I know it was a 500 grain cup and core soft point something or another we used. Working from maybe 5-10% below max, we worked up loads with both IMR 4064 and IMR 3031. A handful of Norma powders had also hit the US market about then but not much data support nor assurance they would be available in the future... so we didn't even try them.

I remember having no problem working up the 458 WM with the 500 gr bullet and those two IMR stick powders, but based on available comparable published data, the velocity achieved, without any pressure signs of stiff bolt lift or overly flattened primers or case head swell, was maybe 2000 fps or slightly less. And no real compression with a powder density from 100% to maybe a grain or two over for a very mild, if not negligible compression. But, that rifle no matter how sweet it looked or felt in the hand was a veritable BEAST off the bench. I learned quickly how to pad up correctly so as to shoot accurately enough for meaningful load and accuracy testing. To my knowledge those loads in that rifle never caused that shooter any problems.

Fast forward with much water under bridge to 1992-3. The Lott story was well known and being tossed around at practically every large bore loading discussion.

In '92 or '93, a close associate and co-worker came up with a Win 70 in 458 WM and wanted me to assist in some load work-up guidance. A chronograph was used as they were much more available then... along with many more powder and bullet options even though the suitable bullet types and powders, compared to today, were still relatively limited. The same procedures were followed along with the addition of the chronograph and the results were very similar this time trying Rel 7, 4064 and 4895 compared to those in 1970 with 4064 and 3031. And the velocity estimates achieved over 20 years earlier while maintaining conservative, reliability-based hunt loads for all conditions were confirmed by the chonograph. A reliable 500 gr hunting load for all conditions in the 458 WM seems to top out at about 2000 fps. If anyone has a particular rifle or magic 500 gr WM load that shoots to 2150 or even 2200 fps while being temperature insensitive and is 100% DG game hunting ammo reliable, more power to them and I do read about such from time to time on the anon internet. But I'll stick with what I know and just live with that self-recognized prejudice against highly compressed loads, ball powders and bragging rights velocities.

WAB said:

My H4350 loads in the 9.3x62 are heavily compressed. They are working extremely well but in 40 years of reloading this is my first experience with compressed loads. Any watchouts I need to be aware of?

Click to expand...

If heavily compressed you may want to crimp your bullets to prevent them from pushing out which depending on your rifles chamber could jam the bullet into the rifling causing increased pressures. Don't ask how I know this suffice it to say it was scary.

You could get a plaster vibrator from a hobby store or ask your dentist to order you one (dentists use them to make bubble free plaster mouth models). Use a long drop tube and pour the powder slowly with the case on the vibrator platform. This will take a full case of powder and move it down to the shoulder or even a bit lower depending on the powder. You will get the densest powder column and your compression issues will be mitigated. JM

Can you buy another rifle to burn up the 748. It’s a versatile powder.
If we can’t talk you into another rifle how hard is it to sel the powder? You should get close to what it worth and add a little to buy a more appropriate powder.

John McLaughlin said:

You could get a plaster vibrator from a hobby store or ask your dentist to order you one (dentists use them to make bubble free plaster mouth models). Use a long drop tube and pour the powder slowly with the case on the vibrator platform. This will take a full case of powder and move it down to the shoulder or even a bit lower depending on the powder. You will get the densest powder column and your compression issues will be mitigated. JM

Click to expand...

Or just ask your wife if you can use hers...someone had to say it.

I've been waiting for someone to pick up on the "vibrator". Well done, sestoppelman. JM

fourfive8 said:

CoElkHunter,
I'd just use up that 748 for practice in the Lott... or at least some of it @ about 82-83 gr a pop with cheap-as-you-can-find 450, 480 or 500 gr bullets for practice.

Then for serious DG loads, Hodgdon's Extreme powders are worth looking at. Unless I'm way off, H335 is very temp sensitive so wouldn't be my choice at all for that. The Extreme powders are purposefully temperature insensitive being the same as ADI powders developed for the temp extremes in Australia, re-branded here and sold by Hodgdon.
http://ns.hodgdon.com/extreme.html

Click to expand...

I have heard the same- Hogdon are pretty temperature stable. I have also heard good things about Vihtavuori which is what I have in my reloads at present.

CoElkHunter said:

I wonder if you could grind up a cylindrical powder like H4831 in a blender and use it like a ball powder? Ha! Ha!

Click to expand...

Please don't, I am beginning to like you ! And removing various gunparts from your person will be both expensive and a waste of a good gun ! Ditto mixing powders. Vibratory devices are outside of my wheelhouse so I just do it old school No complaints in 19 years so I must be doing someting right.

I use a long tube and a funnel ... depending on how much I want to put powder inside the sheath, the tube can measure one meter.

Therein lies the problem with the .458 that some simply fail to accept...The real option is to punch the chamber out to the 458 Lott, and that's real easy and not expensive, then load it with a mild load that propels a 500 gr. bullet at 2150 to 2200 FPS and at very low pressure, easy on the shoulder, and that will knock the living snot out of any animal that walks this earth, mild of recoil and muzzle blast by comparison..

Don't over think the problem, just put your forefinger in top of the loaded case and tap it gently untilt he level changes a bit, and stick a bullet in it...compression is a problem and it actually can contribute to accuracy, test your loads regardless under similar condition you expect is a good idea...Mostly I recall using RL-7 in my .458, but in the end I opted for a 404 and a 416 REm...The Lott was what the 458 should have been in the first place, and loaded down to about 2200 FPS IMHO...

Wyatt Smith said:

I know a man who vibrates them with an electric razor.

Click to expand...

@CoElkHunter
@Wyatt Smith
Young Mr Smith an old electric toothbrush works as well but I don't think there will be much difference with a fine ball powder like 748.
748 can get temperamental when compressed to much and give erratic pressure and sometimes pressure spikes.
Bob

CoElkHunter said:

I

I love my .338 and probably wouldn’t NEED any caliber larger unless I make it to Africa for DG. But I really enjoy shooting the larger calibers and now want to enjoy reloading them? As for bad influence, I think it’s like a plague here on AH! Ha! Ha! Ha!

Click to expand...

@CoElkHunter
@Dr Ray
Both of you seem to have an incurable infliction called bigboreitis. There is no cure for it not even old age or common sense can help you.
My non professional opinion is to try and work it out of your system slowly until you are cured. This could result in more reloading and shooting tho and hasn't proven to work.
WARNING DO NOT GO COLD TURKEY AS THIS COULD CAUSE DISASTEROUS DAMANGE TO YOUR WALLETS WANTING MORE AND BIGGER GUNS.
Bob

JLF said:

I use a long tube and a funnel ... depending on how much I want to put powder inside the sheath, the tube can measure one meter.

Click to expand...

I guess the tube will also prevent some of the powder granules from getting stuck on the inside of the neck from the case lube? I’ve never worried about it and just load a bullet into the case which pushes the powder granules from the neck into the case.

Bob Nelson 35Whelen said:

@CoElkHunter
@Dr Ray
Both of you seem to have an incurable infliction called bigboreitis. There is no cure for it not even old age or common sense can help you.
My non professional opinion is to try and work it out of your system slowly until you are cured. This could result in more reloading and shooting tho and hasn't proven to work.
WARNING DO NOT GO COLD TURKEY AS THIS COULD CAUSE DISASTEROUS DAMANGE TO YOUR WALLETS WANTING MORE AND BIGGER GUNS.
Bob

Click to expand...

Bob Nelson 35Whelen,
Dr Ray is actually one of the first persons I conversed with here on AH when I joined back in 2018. I don’t remember what it was about, but I’m sure I was asking one of my stupid questions about large bore rifles. Anyway, Dr Ray dazzled me with his .416 Remington information and stories, so he primed my feeble mind towards thinking about larger bore rifles. As for common sense, I think I leave it behind when I’m here on this forum. The ENABLERS here are very clever with their subtleties while pushing larger bored rifles and bigger and heavier bullets and trying to suck everyone into the “Black Hole” of owning bigger and better rifles! I’m trying to find my way out now! Ha! Ha!
CEH

Dr Ray said:

Great grammar I wrote
This friend does a lot of shooting so he’s interested in the 416 now. He used to shoot buffalo w a 308 but I suggested that one day he’ll get killed doing that.

Click to expand...

@Dr Ray
I don't know about that Doc my dad shot truck loads of buff and croc in the mid to late 40s and he survived to tell the tale. He thought the old 303 was moe gun than the average Aussie needed.
Bob.

fourfive8 said:

This thread brings back my earliest memories of reloading. Of course any of those earliest load notes long since pitched. Two of my earliest lessons based on over pressure events involved case length and ball powder temperature sensitivity. Neither involved catastrophic failure but both provided a stern warning. Since then I pay attention to case length and using the best, most forgiving powder for the job. That was the period 1968 to 1970. Both events of my doing and one coincidental by a friend, turned out to be blessings in disguise!

At that time H414 had just hit the market and was certainly budget friendly. I had an old Win M54 bolt gun in 30-06 and young enough to be entranced by the more and faster the better ballistic folly . Summer temps were topping 110+. One afternoon I loaded a few max minus one grain loads of H414 under a common 180 gr bullet in the 06 and headed to the gravel pit/range. This load had proven to be a good one for me the previous couple of years. 1st shot jammed the bolt pretty tight requiring knocking it open with a 2x4. Obvious gross over pressure load! Coincidentally a friend really jammed his Rem pump in 30-06 with a similar load, but using WW760, not a weak later and in similar hot conditions. Yep even as young and dumb as I was then, I recognized a pattern, a real clue . Both of those loads which had been perfectly fine mannered in those rifles previously and most recently not 2 months earlier and only 25 degrees cooler had suddenly turned nasty!! From that summer in 1970 til now I have avoided ball powders.... much less having any desire to compress a ball powder (sorry ball powder fans just my thing and opinion). From that day til now I’ve loaded conservatively, always used a chronograph when they became available for load development, payed no attention to ballistic hype/wanna be hunting sniper hype from anonymous sources, loaded for reliability for all conditions and have never had a single hiccup after many thousands of rounds both at the range and in the field from AK to Africa. Anecdotal? Maybe, but I’ll stick to it.

And thanks to our Aussie friends we now have all those great Extreme powders to choose from... IMO, hard to beat for developing the most reliable hunting loads ever available.

Click to expand...

@fourfive8
A couple of ball powders I have had no problems with are Hogdon CFE223 and Superformance. I have used these powders at minus 4 celcieus up to 42 degrees Celsius and never had a problem with pressure excursions. I load up to 64grains of each powder in different cartridges and still use a standard large rifle primers with no ignition problem in cold weather. Burning rates are strange things what can be considered slow burn in one cartridge can be fast burn in another. Burn rate charts should be used with caution. Superformance is slower than H4831sc but give higher velocity in my 25 than any other powder due to the different pressure curve. It's the same with CFE223 in my Whelen. Standard powder gives a parabolic curve while cfe223 and Superformance give a lower peak pressure but maintain it longer than a parabolic curve.
I'm getting a bit technical so I better shut up.
LOD SAFE, SHOOT WELL AND HAVE FUN
Bob