Loads for .458 Winchester Magnum

Ray B said:

I have found the solution to "the problem" with the 458 Win Mag is to seat the bullets out to a slightly longer overall length. I have a Win M70 and the only thing needed to accomplish this was to remove the spacer from the magazine. the other solution that I find as effective is to use 480 grain bullets. If you aren't able to extend the OAL and must use 500 grain bullets I'd suggest Re7. I have heard that it is more temperature sensitive than the single base extrudeds and I haven't been in any extended hot weather to test them, but I have had no problems with it. If single base is needed some of the powders from 3031 to 4320 may provide the ballistics. If the 458 Win Mag didn't have enough horsepower for me then right on past the Lott and get something such as a 450 Dakota but for me, the Win Mag is fine.

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How do you crimp the bullets when seated out further forward?

IvW said:

How do you crimp the bullets when seated out further forward?

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Most monometal bullets have so called' driving bands'. Just crimp into the next groove down AFTER checking that your bullets don't touch the lands. Or use Woodleight 480 gr bullets where the canelure has been set back at the factory. Or if you really get excited Hornady and others sell a canelure tool-never seen one but apparently it rolls a canelure into FMJ bullets.

Nhoro said:

Most monometal bullets have so called' driving bands'. Just crimp into the next groove down AFTER checking that your bullets don't touch the lands. Or use Woodleight 480 gr bullets where the canelure has been set back at the factory. Or if you really get excited Hornady and others sell a canelure tool-never seen one but apparently it rolls a canelure into FMJ bullets.

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Yes. Some bullet manufactures have the groove farther to the rear, for certain bullets, to accommodate a better (shallower) seating depth for 458 WM and its more limited case capacity. I really don't like monolithic bullets without drive bands, so avoid them anyway. That was one of the problems associated with the original Barnes X. I know that cannelure tools do OK with conventional jacketed bullets- not sure about monolithic copper or brass? Be interested in hearing from someone who has tried it.

FWIW I use, on occasion a Lee Factory Crimp die for on those unique situations, 458 WM or my NE rounds etc where there's no driving bands/cannelure available in the "right" place for a roll crimp. Adjustable for the tension you want. For the 458 WM under $20 bucks and does a credible job.

Nhoro said:

Most monometal bullets have so called' driving bands'. Just crimp into the next groove down AFTER checking that your bullets don't touch the lands. Or use Woodleight 480 gr bullets where the canelure has been set back at the factory. Or if you really get excited Hornady and others sell a canelure tool-never seen one but apparently it rolls a canelure into FMJ bullets.

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Or just use a proper 458 with enough case capacity and crimp it where the groove is

Not sure if you're still after loads for your .458WM/ Lott but heres a new one that I'm using in my .458WM.

It is:

Woodleigh 550gn RNSP
73gn BENCHMARK
Winchester case
CCI 250 mag primer

MV = 2080fps in my 24" barrel

I'm using a drop tube and I'm getting VERY low shot to shot variation and I'm seating and crimping to the groove with no dramas in regards to compression etc...
It's showing no signs of excess pressure and cases flick out without a hint of resistance. As a bonus it cloverleafs at 50m in my rifle.

Might be worth a shot mate

Cheers,

Russ

IvW said:

Or just use a proper 458 with enough case capacity and crimp it where the groove is

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Well ironically, if you want to match the minumum OAL of the SAAMI specs for a Win Mag, then you cannot load Peregrines on the first crimping groove. You need to use the second. The same with the 450 gr peregrines. The woodleigh solid is manufactured with a canelure from the factory.

You can therefore buy factory ammo or reload store bought bullets- 480-500 gr bullets at 2150 fps. So what exactly do you expect from the calibre- that it meets specifications or that it equals larger case capacities ? I am confused.

A 45-70 is not a 458 win mag is not a 460 weatherby. As long as they do what they say on the box, you choose what you want- without prejudice !

Nhoro said:

Well ironically, if you want to match the minumum OAL of the SAAMI specs for a Win Mag, then you cannot load Peregrines on the first crimping groove. You need to use the second. The same with the 450 gr peregrines. The woodleigh solid is manufactured with a canelure from the factory.

You can therefore buy factory ammo or reload store bought bullets- 480-500 gr bullets at 2150 fps. So what exactly do you expect from the calibre- that it meets specifications or that it equals larger case capacities ? I am confused.

A 45-70 is not a 458 win mag is not a 460 weatherby. As long as they do what they say on the box, you choose what you want- without prejudice !

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Many factory loads do not achieve what is printed on the box. Especially in 458WM

I asked how does the bullet get crimped when you seat the bullet further out from the case. Many bullets have but one crimping groove....still got no answer....loading lighter for caliber bullets in order to create case capacity is not the answer. How do you crimp the bullet with a 500 gr bullet that has just one crimping groove? that is if you don't have the fancy tool to make your own?

yes I choose what I want and it is not a 458 WM, many better options in that caliber range without the issues of the 458 WM. Many love it and many like me do not for our own reasons....

IvW said:

Many factory loads do not achieve what is printed on the box.

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Please publish any 458 win mag chronograph results of factory ammo. I started a thread asking for chrono results and dozens of people spouted exactly what you have-factory ammo never makes the published speeds. But not a single person could supply a single chronograph result to prove this assertion. No one had tested it. Eventually on about Page 8 I got actual chrono results and low and behold-Factory ammo made the specs.

Nhoro said:

Please publish any 458 win mag chronograph results of factory ammo. I started a thread asking for chrono results and dozens of people spouted exactly what you have-factory ammo never makes the published speeds. But not a single person could supply a single chronograph result to prove this assertion. No one had tested it. Eventually on about Page 8 I got actual chrono results and low and behold-Factory ammo made the specs.

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Hey Nhoro,

I managed to track some old Winchester .458WM ammo for my rifle that still had the red, white and orange box. I reckon early 80's..?
Anyway, I chrono'd that in my 24" Zastava and it still clocked 2020fps for a quoted 2040fps.
Thought that was pretty good for old ammo - and in fact it is the closest to factory spec velocity of any factory ammo I've ever fired.
It also cloverleafed 3 shots at 50m and the brass looks to be of good quality.
I also managed to bag Red deer with this ammo and it dropped it convincingly and with authority.

Even though I'm a handloader and I originally bought this ammo just to shoot off so I could use the brass, it has proven to be that good that I'm actually using the factory ammo for my hunting as it's too good to waste

Cheers,

Russ

russ,
i have been using 284 win brass from that era in my fclass rifle.
it has turned out to be the equal of lapua brass when batched for weight.
with either brand i just divide 200 cases into 4 batches of 50.
it takes the same pressures too.
interestingly, the win brass neckturns with a much cleaner cut than lapua which seems to "tear" more than the winchester.
bruce.

Thanks Russ. I did get actual chrono results on about page 5 after wading through tonnes of win mag bashing. Hornady,Federal and Norma factory Ammo make the grade from results I got. 450 gr bullets have the same sectional density as a 375 H&H and you can get them up to 2300 fps. I personally know a property that has used them to take 20 or 30 elephants - some big bulls. The uncertainty is because a few rifles are used by different employees but more than half of the rifles are win mags

Nhoro said:

Please publish any 458 win mag chronograph results of factory ammo. I started a thread asking for chrono results and dozens of people spouted exactly what you have-factory ammo never makes the published speeds. But not a single person could supply a single chronograph result to prove this assertion. No one had tested it. Eventually on about Page 8 I got actual chrono results and low and behold-Factory ammo made the specs.

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Let me ques, you own a 458 WM, whatever you have used it on it has worked for you so far, you have not chronograph ed your own ammo, you drive a Land Rover?

IvW said:

Let me ques, you own a 458 WM, whatever you have used it on it has worked for you so far, you have not chronograph ed your own ammo, you drive a Land Rover?

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Actually own a lott,landcruiser prado,and chronograph results below.

480 gr peregrine peregrine solid,approx 18 deg c,labrador chronograph, 2142 fps
450 gr peregrine,same day and conditions 2223 fps.

Let me guess- egg on your face ?

Oh and still no proof for all your claims. Can you supply chronograph results to prove any of your claims. Let me guess again, your cousins uncle once went on a hunt with a guy in a landrover and he used a 458 win mag to shoot an elephant. The bullet bounced off the hide and hit him in the eye. The win mag was so weak,he didn't even get hurt

Nhoro said:

Actually own a lott,landcruiser prado,and chronograph results below.

480 gr peregrine peregrine solid,approx 18 deg c,labrador chronograph, 2142 fps
450 gr peregrine,same day and conditions 2223 fps.

Let me guess- egg on your face ?

Oh and still no proof for all your claims. Can you supply chronograph results to prove any of your claims. Let me guess again, your cousins uncle once went on a hunt with a guy in a landrover and he used a 458 win mag to shoot an elephant. The bullet bounced off the hide and hit him in the eye. The win mag was so weak,he didn't even get hurt

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Great, not at all...just like to prove that each have their preferences....I guess you do not hunt using the Prado...you could I guess.....my cousins uncle....haha funny...one from Texas, one from Minneapolis and the other not sure....

Lets see the 458 WM was designed to fire a 510gr bullet @ 2150 fps, sadly it could not and still cannot achieve this. I chronographed Winchester ammo at 1800-1900 Fps, scary stuff...had on more than one occasion experienced issues with lack of penetration when used by people I have guided, others had issues with stuck cases as pressures had soured due to hot hand loads trying to achieve what it cannot....

Why load light for caliber bullets? Your own figures indicate it cannot achieve 2150 Fps with 480gr let alone a 510 gr bullet...

It has the smallest case capacity of all the 458 cartridges....93 gr water compared to the next one up the Lott @ 103 gr water.

Loaded with S321 71.8gr will yield only 2083 fps and 4818 ft lbs at a pressure of 58079 psi
The Lott with S321 80gr will yield 2250 fps and 5621 ft lbs

So the one falls far short and the other exceeds the target.

I prefer not to fool around with marginal calibers when it comes to DG therefore I use a 500 Jeff and have never been disappointing never mind the situation, unfortunately the same cannot be said of the 458 WM.

Hell if it works for you and you think it is the right caliber for even elephant under the worst conditions who am I to argue....for me it is no good for that task, it is marginal, does not achieve what it was supposed to.

If one needs to load lighter for caliber bullets to try and get a caliber to achieve what it should then rather step down in caliber.

I would use a 404 Jeff, 416 Rigby and even the 375 H&H with 340 gr bullets long before I even consider the 458 WM........

I'm not going to get into the .458WM debate as I've done all this before in the past and I'm sick to death of it...

If people want to NOT use it - fine.
If people like myself who do like it want to use it - that's fine too.

But I do take exception when I hear that it can't make factory specs... coz I've done it.
And I'm not a professional hunter/ handloader - I'm a nurse on a surgical ward.

I have reached and used the following:
2220fps with the 500gn Woodleigh PP,
2150fps with the 480gn Woodleigh RNSP
2080fps with the 550gn Woodleigh RNSP
2660fps with the 300gn Sierra FNSP (This was a plinking load and was also a STARTING load in the manual)

NOTE: All these loads were worked up using ADI powders.

None of these loads gave sticky extraction or blew primers etc... and I live in Australia where it gets pretty hot.

The .458 is still very popular up the top end of Australia for hunting Water Buffalo and Scrub Bulls and I personally correspond with a few people who use one for this work.
In fact one guy in particular actually bought my Winchester M70 .458 off me and he LOVES it for the big stuff and he shoots more animals than most would believe.
It gets stinking hot up the north but talking to these guys no-one mentions any problems.

As I said, it is of absolutely NO concern to me if someone chooses to use a .458 or not - but I've personally had nothing but success loading for the 5 I've owned. Using 480-550gn Woodleighs I've always managed to achieve the magical 5000ft/lbs. With good accuracy. And no excessive pressure.

This has been my experience YMMV

Russ

Russ,
I sold my .458wm for a .375H&H, no bashing the win mag just can’t justify both but at least I’ve had them.

What are you using the 550gn for? Seems like a “Fair Dinkum Projectile”

Keep promoting the Aussie powder and it’s overseas branded equivalent.

The advantage is it’s desigend to be stable at varying temperatures, particularly in Hot climates like The NT of Australia and other countries.

I have a few Woodleigh projectiles but nothing big around where I live or work in NSW.

Territory Buff are on my wish list.

CBH Australia said:

Russ,
I sold my .458wm for a .375H&H, no bashing the win mag just can’t justify both but at least I’ve had them.

What are you using the 550gn for? Seems like a “Fair Dinkum Projectile”

Keep promoting the Aussie powder and it’s overseas branded equivalent.

The advantage is it’s desigend to be stable at varying temperatures, particularly in Hot climates like The NT of Australia and other countries.

I have a few Woodleigh projectiles but nothing big around where I live or work in NSW.

Territory Buff are on my wish list.

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Hi mate,

Am going to use the 550gn Woodleigh's on a guided management buffalo hunt next year.

They were recommended to me by someone who uses them in a .458WM on buffalo up NT. He gets a similar velocity to what I'm getting and he says they are incredible. Hit like absolute freight trains.
Certainly Fair-Dinkum!

They are also easy to load too. Using a drop tube I had no problem crimping to the groove.

Yep, I really rate ADI powders and use them exclusively. Doesn't matter what the caliber, it seems that there is an ADI powder that will suit.
Temperature stable and affordable. Just a great Aussie product!

I look forward to hearing about that hunt.

Badboymelvin said:

I'm not going to get into the .458WM debate as I've done all this before in the past and I'm sick to death of it...

If people want to NOT use it - fine.
If people like myself who do like it want to use it - that's fine too.

But I do take exception when I hear that it can't make factory specs... coz I've done it.
And I'm not a professional hunter/ handloader - I'm a nurse on a surgical ward.

I have reached and used the following:
2220fps with the 500gn Woodleigh PP,
2150fps with the 480gn Woodleigh RNSP
2080fps with the 550gn Woodleigh RNSP
2660fps with the 300gn Sierra FNSP (This was a plinking load and was also a STARTING load in the manual)

NOTE: All these loads were worked up using ADI powders.

None of these loads gave sticky extraction or blew primers etc... and I live in Australia where it gets pretty hot.

The .458 is still very popular up the top end of Australia for hunting Water Buffalo and Scrub Bulls and I personally correspond with a few people who use one for this work.
In fact one guy in particular actually bought my Winchester M70 .458 off me and he LOVES it for the big stuff and he shoots more animals than most would believe.
It gets stinking hot up the north but talking to these guys no-one mentions any problems.

As I said, it is of absolutely NO concern to me if someone chooses to use a .458 or not - but I've personally had nothing but success loading for the 5 I've owned. Using 480-550gn Woodleighs I've always managed to achieve the magical 5000ft/lbs. With good accuracy. And no excessive pressure.

This has been my experience YMMV

Russ

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Well said Russ!! I've taken 6 DG in Africa - and all 1-shot kills with the 458 Win Mag at ranges from 30 to 120yds using 500gr Woodleigh PPSN and FMJs. Ive also spoken with many PHs over 30yrs - and not those either working as my PH, or expecting a booking - and not one has stated a vehemence against the calibre. From my experience though, it seems this vehemence only began once the Lott became available.

I agree some now have a perpetual bee in their bonnet over the 458 Win Mag (and always will!), while others gleefully point out that 50yr old chestnut over clumping powder - but now rectified with the availability of today's powders. Though IMO the calibre is more than adequate for DG, I'm always amused by the argument over it's perceived inadequacy, especially when there was a well-known PH/Warden (whose name now escapes me) who preferred using the 9.3x62 on elephant! Also, on one of my more recent hunts, I met a Zimbabwean qualified PH who was emphatic on the matter: the Woodleigh 480gr projectile gave consistently phenomenal results in the 458 Win Mag - and this PH spoke with the authority of over 30yrs experience. Many also forget that the Lott itself owes its' birth to Jack Lott getting injured by a buffalo because he didn't follow his PH's instructions, and instead put the blame on the rifle he was using - a 458 Win Mag - but that's a different story.

Despite the armchair battles over the 458, IMHO it remains that IF it's such an inadequate calibre - and so damn dangerous to use on DG - then let the anti-458 Win Mag crowd lobby to change the DG rules concerning it's use? Until they do, I'll keep taking DG with it - proof enough IMO that it's enough gun to do the job.