Flat nose vs round nose solids - What are the actual facts?

DWB said:

Please share with us how you get a rifle to feed flat nose solids?

Them hitting the chamber mouth is a big reality. Where I do believe the Winchester rifles' chamber mouth is beveled which probably helps.

If I remember correctly @Red Leg has also mentioned before that he has had a few rifles altered to feed these solids?

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Nothing to share. I have owned well over a 100 Winchester M70 Control Feed guns, and they all feed Flat Nose Solids, with up to 68% meplat of caliber, and do nothing. Many from the factory or the Old Custom shop in New Haven, and many many many B&Ms built by SSK Industries using Winchester M70 RUM or WSM actions. We have never had one that would not feed Flat Nose Solids.

So there is no big secret magic........... I own a very few Ruger guns, none of them will feed anything above 50% Meplat. Of course, they have never been to the field. And while this may upset some of you, I would not allow a CZ anything to enter my home, well, that is a bit of a stretch, as I do have a CZ 17 caliber Rimfire, its rough as a cob, but shoots pretty good. But it is not considered for Dangerous Game........

I know some less than desirable gunsmiths that have screwed up Winchesters, but they don't work on my rifles. Sorry, never had that issue at all, until you go above 68% Meplat of Caliber, and remember, 65% is self stabilizing during terminals..............

For those who have wondered about the differences between the Mauser type breech face and that of the Winchester.

Photo courtesy of African Dangerous Game Cartridges by Pierre van der Walt.

I said my piece and it didn't include reliability as that was not the question at the time, its another thread IMO...but since its been brought I place reliability #1..That said, it would be meaningless if a gun didn't feed 110%....I wouldn't use any bullet or gun that didn't feed, if it didn't feed flat nose solids and round nose solids Id get rid of it, and get one that did, maybe a double rifle, I used a couple of those over the years and they all worked for me, but then, there is no excuse going to hunt DG with a rifle that won't feed, I wouldn't do that.

DWB said:

Please share with us how you get a rifle to feed flat nose solids?

Them hitting the chamber mouth is a big reality. Where I do believe the Winchester rifles' chamber mouth is beveled which probably helps.

If I remember correctly @Red Leg has also mentioned before that he has had a few rifles altered to feed these solids?

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It has to do with 3 things primarily-1/ The height and angle of the feed ramp 2/ The width of the magazine and reciever that forms the top of the magazine and the feed lips on the magazine. You can look at my post and see what I did- https://www.africahunting.com/posts/500528/. It is a long and slow process and a few tenths of a millimetre make a big difference.

Personally I would find a good gunsmith to do it. Mine now feeds flat nose bullets (peregrine solids and hornady DGS, several hundred tests with both Lott and Win mag ammo. It is a CZ 550 and I haven't coned the breech because I have managed to get the bullets to feed into the chamber without bouncing off the chamber mouth. In fact I even loaded a Peregrine solid backwards and it feeds the flat base (that would be equivalent to I guess a 90 % meplat). The breech being coned works in most cases but IMHO if you get the action right, it feeds the nose into the chamber and it is the way that the action is designed to operate. Manufacturers just couldnt be bothered-the same action is used from 375 to 416 rigby, I have also seen gunsmith short cuts ie the cartridge comes out of the magazine before the nose is in the chamber. It works but is it right ? And no one can argue with the old and new Model 70 are reliable guns. But my guns club has 2 that don't feed flat nose bullets so it is a real concern. And many PH's choose the reliability of a round nose over the performance of a flat.

Thank you. Excellent post.

Some observations of bullet shapes. Here is a conventional solid vs a copper flat nose. What I noticed is that overall length is more similar than I would have thought. Monlithics are well known for being longer. But the flat nose allows more weight at the nose- good for a forward centre of mass and good for penetration. The round nose has quite a taper from the round nose and I wonder if that is not a large part of the poorer penetration and tendency to tumble ? All its weight is at the back.Also notice the flat nose (peregrine) has a slight boat tail-again pushing the centre of mass forward.

This mule deer was shot at about 30 yards with a 45 70. I believe the photo shows the exit? The bullet was modeled after the RCBS 45 405. The exception was the meplat was widened to .33 from .28 of the original RCBS design. 400 gr cast bullet at 1765 fps, I do not remember the exact BHN. I doubt there was much expansion. Two deer and two elk all showed simmilar wound, with the elk entrance and exits being slightly smaller. No bullets recovered. The deer dropped on the spot and the elk fell within a few yards in sight, as I chambered the next round. I am happy with the FN design. Meplat size and impact velocity have a direct effect on wound channel size that can be estimated from my readings on the subject (Veral Smith's research). My PH had no interest in the CEB flat nose solids for any game or as back up in my 500, so I never had an opportunity with them. John

John J said:

This mule deer was shot at about 30 yards with a 45 70. I believe the photo shows the exit? The bullet was modeled after the RCBS 45 405. The exception was the meplat was widened to .33 from .28 of the original RCBS design. 400 gr cast bullet at 1765 fps, I do not remember the exact BHN. I doubt there was much expansion. Two deer and two elk all showed simmilar wound, with the elk entrance and exits being slightly smaller. No bullets recovered. The deer dropped on the spot and the elk fell within a few yards in sight, as I chambered the next round. I am happy with the FN design. Meplat size and impact velocity have a direct effect on wound channel size that can be estimated from my readings on the subject (Veral Smith's research). My PH had no interest in the CEB flat nose solids for any game or as back up in my 500, so I never had an opportunity with them. JohnView attachment 357013

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Where did his interest lie?
I think there's enough data for the positive on the CEB designs that one can politely disagree and use them in lieu of clammering onto the TSX or A frame bandwagons.
I'm not going to argue with anyone on bullets. I'll do my own research and go from there. I'll respect the call on solid and expanding right up until things go pear shaped and then it's whatever I can get into the gun and on target to buy myself the next shot. Rinse and repeat until the situation is stabilized. Then we'll see what is what. I believe CEB is a premium bullet and it works. Nosler and Speer may have some discussion. Barnes and Swift will get the nod of most all, but I don't think they backseat CEB or North Fork.

Forrest Halley said:

Where did his interest lie?
I think there's enough data for the positive on the CEB designs that one can politely disagree and use them in lieu of clammering onto the TSX or A frame bandwagons.
I'm not going to argue with anyone on bullets. I'll do my own research and go from there. I'll respect the call on solid and expanding right up until things go pear shaped and then it's whatever I can get into the gun and on target to buy myself the next shot. Rinse and repeat until the situation is stabilized. Then we'll see what is what. I believe CEB is a premium bullet and it works. Nosler and Speer may have some discussion. Barnes and Swift will get the nod of most all, but I don't think they backseat CEB or North Fork.

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I believe the PH's interest or lack of was they were not needed. He preferred expanding bullets on all shots. I had them but if he saw no need, I was ok with that. They came in handy when I let the trackers shoot the rifle for fun. John

Solids are only good for elephant brain shots and shooting the tiny’s with big guns. I use Barnes TSX for most everything now. I applaud you for such diligent research though.
Philip

Philip Glass said:

Solids are only good for elephant brain shots and shooting the tiny’s with big guns. I use Barnes TSX for most everything now. I applaud you for such diligent research though.
Philip

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There's one poor fella that can't see the trees that may beg to differ on the use of solids. Haha.
I like the TSX, but cannot see how it isn't comparable to the raptor. I had missed that he was only using the CEB solids.

Philip Glass said:

Solids are only good for elephant brain shots and shooting the tiny’s with big guns. I use Barnes TSX for most everything now. I applaud you for such diligent research though.
Philip

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Well, while I would use a CEB raptor for the first shot on a buffalo, for subsequent shots I would use solids as you have no idea the angle you will be shooting maybe even a Texas heart shot . On a hippo on land I'd use a solid as well.

Tanks said:

Well, while I would use a CEB raptor for the first shot on a buffalo, for subsequent shots I would use solids as you have no idea the angle you will be shooting maybe even a Texas heart shot . On a hippo on land I'd use a solid as well.

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Yep me too- I've not used the CEB Raptor for 1st shot but other quality soft expanders. No matter the type of soft used for 1st shot, for something like a buffalo, it's the second, third, fourth shot... that is all wacky and hurried from odd and usually bad angles. The Flat Point monolithic solid is where my money is. Been there done that. I know there is a great divide amongst PHs and hunters alike on this issue for tough DG follow ups- so be it. But my comfort level for best odds favors a good quality FP solid for follow up shots.

A good, proper designed FN Solid is the cheapest insurance you can have on any hunt. It will GO where NO expanding, trauma inflicting bullet can begin to reach. It can bust thru trees, and brush, twigs and sticks on those all important #2 + shots, after the dance has begun. The Solid is the bullet you count on when you shoot at the South end of a North Bound buffalo or elephant, or perhaps that big brown bear that just went into the Alders. No expanding bullet or trauma inflicting bullet can accomplish those missions reliably.

After the dance begins, rules are thrown to the wind, no more "Perfect Broadside Shots" will be available from that point forward. You will want the shear brawn and muscle of the FN Solid to finish the dance. It can, it has, and it will, be the best option for you to be successful in your endeavor, it can and has saved expensive animals from being lost, it can, and has saved not only lost trophies, but yourself, or others from loosing their lives as well.

I have used in the field various calibers, cartridges and rifles, using Woodleigh softs, Barnes TSX, Swift As, Lehighs, CEB Raptors, North Fork Softs and CPS, and North Fork Expanding CPS, Hornady, Sierra, Noslers, and probably more that I can't remember off hand, and NONE Of them, NOT ONE, can achieve the depth of penetration that MIGHT be needed, or required to finish what the others might start. This is when a Proper Designed Solid comes into play.

I suppose some may still just shoot the one perfect shot and sit around to see what happens, hope for the best. Not me, I didn't go to all that trouble and aggravation to shoot one time and hope for the best. Shoot until; You cannot shoot anymore, your animal is out of sight, you are out of ammo, or your problem is down and solved, then you shoot one more time to make sure! Every round after #1 needs to be a proper designed SOLID.

There are MANY good reasons to have Good Solids with you, and ZERO reasons Not to.

Can you use solids on buffalo in Namibia? When I was reading the rules on the NAPHA they say you can only use solids on pachyderms, Elephant ,Hippo , Rhino.

Thanks

Craig

Ive read all the koolaid and used both, both work on Buffalo just fine, on elephant I always use flat nose solids, I favor GS Customs and North fork cup points, never have seen one go off course, … Some may have as anything can happen, but its not rocket science that a flat nose solid is far better than round nose..sometimes we over think such things.

Here is a great article on the subject....interesting and factual....

Everything else being equal , solid bullets with meplat nose profiles ( such as this 500 grain Hornady DGS steel jacketed bullet ) will out penetrate solid bullets with blunt nose profiles . The problem is that many bolt action rifles do not feed properly with ammunition employing meplat nosed bullets .

There is more opinnions on this subject than the 270 vs. the 30-06, but the fact is the flat nose solid will simply penetrate deep, crunch more bone and remain in a straight line than the old round nose solids..I base that on actual observation and bullet recovery from DG mostly buffalo, Hippo and elephant..all the rest is ca ca!

Flat nose meplat solids are more relevant to DG hunting than anything else....where straight line deep penetration is required which is only relevant in practical terms towards elephant and maybe rhino hunting or hippo on land for the rest premium expanding bullets are the way to go....