Model 70 Safari Express Optic Limbo

Forrest Halley

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How low can you go? Apparently I can get away with a 30mm VX-3I 4.5-14x40 mounted low in Warne QD rings. It comes up pretty good and I love the clarity. Pretty good light gathering on 4.5x. For the first time in my life I have a rifle with two scopes and open sights. I'm not sure how long it will stay that way, but for now I have a .375 zeroed at 25 yards with the 2.5x scope and 300's also works for 285's. The larger scope is zeroed 1" high at fifty yards for a 200 yard zero with 285's. Open sights are on at 50 with 285's coincidentally and set for 25 with 300's. I will be shooting it in various configurations to see just how much I need two scopes. I'm happy to have Leupold on my scoped heavy rifles.
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Does anyone have any input on why not to go this low? I feel like I have sufficient clearance on the irons, but am I missing something?

Also do I really need to keep the 2.5x dedicated to this rifle? The scope is spot on at 25 yards with 300 grain bullets and serviceable at 50 yards with 285's. The open sights are doing just fine at 25 yards and I notice no difference at 50 yards.
 
I'd say 4.5 - 14X is a bit of an overkill for a .375 H&H. But, I guess if you are thinking of taking PG out to 300 yards it would work. The 2.5 is fine, but I'd sight it in at 50 yards with 300 grains which should be the same POI at 100 as well. That's the DG scope, though for cats most PHs recommend a bit more light gathering ability.

On my .375 I have one bullet configured for it, 300 grain TSX.

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My .375 wears a 1-6x as does my 9.3x62. For me 6x is plenty for any plains game to 400 yards. I have a VX3 4.5-14x but it’s on a rifle I shoot small targets with (prairie dogs, gophers, etc).
 
Does anyone have any input on why not to go this low? I feel like I have sufficient clearance on the irons, but am I missing something?

As long your cheek position & eye relief is good and you can't see the iron sights through the scope, there is no negative with going that low.
 
Does anyone have any input on why not to go this low? I feel like I have sufficient clearance on the irons, but am I missing something?

Also do I really need to keep the 2.5x dedicated to this rifle? The scope is spot on at 25 yards with 300 grain bullets and serviceable at 50 yards with 285's. The open sights are doing just fine at 25 yards and I notice no difference at 50 yards.

What's your bolt clearance like with that set up?

My Mod 70 wears a Meopta R2 1-6x24 in Warne low QD mounts. I find I have about 2.5mm clerance between the power ring on the ocular bell and the 'ball' of the bolt handle. There isn't enough play in the bolt for it to make contact.

This is ok for me as I tend to cycle the bolt with an 'open hand and the thumb' grip, so the scope doesn't interfere, but if you wanted to actually grip the bolt, you'd skin your knuckles.

Try cycling it fast. Does you hand contact the scope at all, will it touch if you jiggle the bolt at the rear of travel. Does the scope restrict access to the bolt so as to interfere with operation in any way?

Al.
 
What's your bolt clearance like with that set up?

My Mod 70 wears a Meopta R2 1-6x24 in Warne low QD mounts. I find I have about 2.5mm clerance between the power ring on the ocular bell and the 'ball' of the bolt handle. There isn't enough play in the bolt for it to make contact.

This is ok for me as I tend to cycle the bolt with an 'open hand and the thumb' grip, so the scope doesn't interfere, but if you wanted to actually grip the bolt, you'd skin your knuckles.

Try cycling it fast. Does you hand contact the scope at all, will it touch if you jiggle the bolt at the rear of travel. Does the scope restrict access to the bolt so as to interfere with operation in any way?

Al.

Good point as well. When doing this test, switch magnification because there might be a little knob that sticks out on the scope
 
Oh, and the usual ejection test is a good idea.

Do the rounds clear the turrets? Worth testing both gentle and more aggressive bolt action on this as I find the ejection angle and dynamics vary a little depending on how hard you hit that fixed ejector blade.

Al.
 
It is my hope to use the .375 as an all around rifle. So I think I'll be okay with the 4.5x with an occasional dial up and keep the 2.5x set up for heavy loads as suggested.

I have a free CDS dial coupon. What load would be suggested for something like that? I was thinking about a high BC hunting bullet. Accubond 270 vs. 300 grain? Another suggestion?
 
It is my hope to use the .375 as an all around rifle. So I think I'll be okay with the 4.5x with an occasional dial up and keep the 2.5x set up for heavy loads as suggested.

I have a free CDS dial coupon. What load would be suggested for something like that? I was thinking about a high BC hunting bullet. Accubond 270 vs. 300 grain? Another suggestion?

As a general PG bullet for zeroing the high mag scope, soething like the 250gr TTSX, 270gr LRX or a 260gr Accubond might be an option? Even something like a Sierra Gameking would do an admirable job on non-DG animals.

It's my view that for longer ranges, the additional velocity of the 250gr class bullets outweighs the improved BC of the 300grainers in this case.

For the heavier game / lower mag combo, 300gr all the way. TSX perhaps or any of the usual suspects.

Al.
 
Forrest, this is my setup on my 375 H&H MRC and it has worked well:
1-6x Leupold VX6 zeroed at 100 yards for DG using 300 grain either Barnes TSX Or Swift A-frame. Both are within 1” of each other.
2-12x Leupold VX6 zeroed for 6” max point blank for PG using Barnes 250 TTSX.

For certain animals I have changed up a bit, but generally this has worked for most. A change example would be crocodile where I zeroed the 2-12x for 100 yards since I was trying to hit such a small kill zone at a fairly close distance with the 250 TTSX.

Having a second scope already set up while on a hunt, I believe, is a good idea. JMO

Best of luck figuring out what works best for you!
 
......

My Mod 70 wears a Meopta R2 1-6x24 in Warne low QD mounts.

Al.

@Alistair ,

What reticle will work best for old eyes? I generally like something fairly heavy such as Swaroski BRH or NF SHV Forceplex (the latter in a 3-10x42).

This would be for a 9.3x62 and no DG on the menu. The Meopta R2 1.7-10 is also a consideration.

Apologies for the hijack.
Thanks,
Joe
 
Okay so how do you multiscope users carry the other scope afield? Or do you equip for the day in camp?
 
Isn't that what iron sights are for :A Stirring:
If you have young eyes iron sights work fine for close up. My old eyes, nope iron sights are useless.
Forrest, I use the scope for the day, but put my spare in my daypack in the truck with other items.
Shootist-, I really like my Leupolds with illuminated red dot. My old eyes just pick it up instantly.
 
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If you have young eyes iron sights work fine for close up. My old eyes, nope iron sights are useless.
I find that the lower power scope works better in low light and lower contrasting environments than the iron sights. I will have to compare them in the moonlight to see which does better a 20 mm 2.5x 1" or a 40mm 4.5x 30mm.
 
I run a 34mm 1x-8x and Im good to 400yds or point blank. Worked great on Moose and big Bears, Off to Africa when Covid is better.
 
once you go over 8x, you need to adjust for parallax at different ranges.
in the field, this is not always easy.
many variables might require an adjustment for focus, or change eye relief when you adjust parallax or magnification.
these are reasons to keep the max power at 8, or preferably lower.
6 or 8 is plenty for max point blank of a 375 on big game.
and the lower end is at or closer to 1x, a good thing.
if a 375 is zeroed at 200 yds, you can just aim dead on big game out to 250 with a 300 gn bullet.
another good zero is to put the 300 gn dead on at 100, and a 270 gn will usually zero at around 200 with the same sight setting.
I scope, I setting, = K.I.S.S.
bruce.
 
I find that the lower power scope works better in low light and lower contrasting environments than the iron sights. I will have to compare them in the moonlight to see which does better a 20 mm 2.5x 1" or a 40mm 4.5x 30mm.
The mathematical answer is as follows Forrest Halley: divide the objective diameter by the magnification in order to calculate the diameter of the light beam reaching your pupil. In this case, a 20 mm objective / 2.5 magnification = 8 mm light beam, and a 40 mm objective / 4.5 magnification = 8.8 mm light beam.

The diameter of the tube, 1" or 30 mm, is essentially irrelevant for an optical instrument as short as a rifle scope. The wider tube advantage is purely mechanical: it offers a wider range of mechanical adjustment for the internal reticle erector. This was originally important when scopes were artisanally mounted on military actions, it avoided having to shim a mount maybe not installed in perfect alignment with the axis of the bore. Recently, the push to go to 34 mm is to allow more "clicks" for long range shooting.

Obviously the lower the scope axis over the bore axis, the less parallax one has to deal with. This affects both long range and ultra short range shooting (a few yards), where a scope mounted 2.5" over the bore axis will result in an impact 2.5" high. That maybe enough to miss a charging buff brain in the very unlikely case you might have to make that shot...

The human pupil dilates from typically 3 mm diameter in full daylight to approximately 7 mm in twilight. This is the reason why traditional 1.5-6x42 European scopes had a 42 mm objective. They provided a 7 mm light beam at dawn and dusk. This is also the reason why 1.25-4 scopes only had a 20 mm objective. They certainly failed to deliver a 7 mm bean at full 4x magnification, but this was largely irrelevant because they were used at the low end of magnification anyway, and could still provide a near 7 mm light beam at 3x at dawn and dusk...

In your case, assuming the same glass quality, the 20 mm 2.5x 1" and 40mm 4.5x 30mm will both provide a light beam wider than 7 mm, hence all the light your pupil can use at full dilation in low light condition.

An additional consideration I would suggest is that if you need to use your scope up close in urgent conditions, 4.5 magnification is close to impractical and even 2.5x is imperfect because magnification really reduces the field of view. In order to be able to shoot very fast, and ideally with both eyes open either running game (driven hunts in Europe) or charging game up close (DG in Africa), it is important to get the low end of magnification as close to 1 as possible. This is why the technological improvement of the last 50 years have focused on getting down from 1.5x, then 1.25x to 1x in straight tube scope used on DG rifles where light gathering is less important than field of you and speed.

Whether 1x glass with red dot is faster than iron sights, I suspect that the answer is "yes" for an aimed shot. I also suspect that the answer is "no" for a pointed shot, shotgun style, really fast really close, which is why the option to detach the scope continues to make sense. As to whether the iron sights are actually aimed or the barrel and front sight are simply pointed shotgun style, is an interesting question...

On the high end, the universal wisdom was for close to 100 years that 4x or 6x (when technology became able to deliver it) was all a big game hunter could ever want.

These are the reasons why the quintessential hunting scope was for 50 years from post WW II to the 2000's a top quality glass variable 1.5-6x42. Near 1x magnification allowed shooting at running game, 6x magnification allowed shooting out to 300 to 400 meters, and 42 mm provided a 7 mm light beam at top magnification at dusk and dawn. These were rational numbers that defined a product designed by engineers who knew what they were doing, as opposed to today's marketing "geniuses" who put on the market scopes that make no sense whatsoever even though slick advertising may make them great sellers :whistle:
 
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added to this, very few human oupils can open to 7mm, most going to more like 5mm.
the 7mm exit pupil is not however wasted, as being wider than the pupil, the sight picture is more quickly obtained.
there is another formula for twilight factor, which shows that more magnification is better, but only with a sufficiently large objective to give the exit pupil.
if you are shooying a rifle like a shotgun, no sight is better or worse than the other.
however, as soon as aiming takes place, the 1x scope will be faster than irons, as everything is in 1 plane as opposed to 3.
this of course assumes that the stock design puts the eye behind the scope with neither too much nor too little bressure on the comb.
forget shooting a rifle like a shotgun unless you have a stockmaker that absolutely can put the right amount of cast, cant, comb height and thickness, etc to allow the gun to point.
to use irons effectively, your eye must focus on the foresight immediately or you are slowed up trying to refocus.
some eyes just cannot do this.
another asset with a scope is for those with an astigmatism.
even if you see 2 reticles over 2 targets, they will line up at the same time.
bruce.
 

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