What happened to British gun industry?

Based up on my professional experience in the shikar field , Webley ... It would have to be the Oberndorf style release catch . Here is an article ... Which I had written a couple of weeks ago .
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/the-hunting-leopard-which-almost-killed-my-client.56586/
It is an English translation of a chapter from my good friend and former colleague's auto biography . Perhaps it may interest you ... To give it a read ?

It shall high light another situation ... Where an Oberndorf style release catch almost cost Riaz his career , and Riaz's client ... His life .
I apologize; I was in error in my original reply to this post. I finished reading it just now.

So the "Oberndorf" style is the inside-the-trigger guard one as described in the excerpt?

All of a sudden , the huge male Hunting Leopard hurled itself upon us from close range . He had been cunningly and vengefully lying in wait for us , among the long grass . My client snapped his rifle up to his shoulder ... in a desperate attempt to shoot the charging , enraged animal . Unfortunately, the Hunting Leopard had gotten ahold of the rifle’s muzzle between it’s vice like jaws . It aggressively tugged at the rifle . While my client desperately struggled to hold onto his rifle ... his knuckle accidentally struck the release button of the rifle’s magazine floor plate ( which , like all Mauser 98 actioned rifles... was located inside the bow of the trigger guard . This set up is referred to , as “ Oberndorf Style “ . ) . The magazine floor plate sprung open and all four of my client’s 10.75x68 mm Mauser caliber RWS soft nosed cartridges had dropped onto the ground . The rifle was now as useless as a big stick .

I find that most curious since, as I mentioned, only one military-issued rifle had that style and most of the Mauser 98 sporting rifle's I've seen feature the horizontally-turning lever fitted directly to the floorplate. I suppose that the floorplate-mounted lever would require a more deliberate action to move, although if it were to get caught on something...

But as I initially said, a hinged floorplate at all is certainly one more thing to go wrong and I'm rethinking my interest in them. Perhaps a simple button to aid in removing the floorplate would be better; it would still take a deliberate action to remove it and not immediately risk dumping the cartridges on the ground at an unfortunate moment.
 
I apologize; I was in error in my original reply to this post. I finished reading it just now.

So the "Oberndorf" style is the inside-the-trigger guard one as described in the excerpt?

All of a sudden , the huge male Hunting Leopard hurled itself upon us from close range . He had been cunningly and vengefully lying in wait for us , among the long grass . My client snapped his rifle up to his shoulder ... in a desperate attempt to shoot the charging , enraged animal . Unfortunately, the Hunting Leopard had gotten ahold of the rifle’s muzzle between it’s vice like jaws . It aggressively tugged at the rifle . While my client desperately struggled to hold onto his rifle ... his knuckle accidentally struck the release button of the rifle’s magazine floor plate ( which , like all Mauser 98 actioned rifles... was located inside the bow of the trigger guard . This set up is referred to , as “ Oberndorf Style “ . ) . The magazine floor plate sprung open and all four of my client’s 10.75x68 mm Mauser caliber RWS soft nosed cartridges had dropped onto the ground . The rifle was now as useless as a big stick .

I find that most curious since, as I mentioned, only one military-issued rifle had that style and most of the Mauser 98 sporting rifle's I've seen feature the horizontally-turning lever fitted directly to the floorplate. I suppose that the floorplate-mounted lever would require a more deliberate action to move, although if it were to get caught on something...

But as I initially said, a hinged floorplate at all is certainly one more thing to go wrong and I'm rethinking my interest in them. Perhaps a simple button to aid in removing the floorplate would be better; it would still take a deliberate action to remove it and not immediately risk dumping the cartridges on the ground at an unfortunate moment.
No apology necessary , Webley .
I believe that the error was mine ... Because I was the 1 who was translating the chapters from Riaz's ( Bengali ) book in to English , in order to post them on African Hunting Forums . When I was typing this article ... I should have added the word " Fabrique Nationale Sporting " in between " All " and " Mauser 98 " .

The 10.75×68 mm Mauser ( .423 Mauser ) calibre Fabrique Nationale Mauser 98 rifles were all built with the " Oberndorf Style " magazine floor plate release catch .
 
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Thank you very much for educating me on this matter , Alastair . It always feels good to be corrected . Another really good British invention in recent years ... Is the May Fair magnum Mauser action .

I am intimately familiar with Eley , Game Bore , Hull and Lyalvale Express cartridges . I have been extensively using Eley cartridges , now ... for more than 61 years in my Belgian shot gun . Eley is 1 of the 5 brands of 12 Bore cartridges ... Which are ALWAYS being commercially imported in to Bangladesh ( The others being : Fiocchi , Lambro , Saga and Sterling ) .


I sincerely do hope that hunting and fire arms ownership not only remains stable .
... But also increases in the next few years . I am pleased to know that the hunting community in Great Britain has remained stable .

It is still quite scary , that people like " Hunt Sabs " ( Who basically dedicate their entire time to sabotaging and harassing law abiding hunters ) ... Can be legally allowed to have web site , where they publicly gloat about sabotaging hunts .


I also find it quite disconcerting that Boris Johnson's government is so frightfully anti hunting . This is made worse , by the fact that the opposition (
Labor Party ) have a flat out agenda to impose restrictions upon hunting and fire arms ownership . So , in essence ... Both political parties in Great Britain want to make life more difficult for hunters .
By contrast ... In America , you have Democrats ( Who target hunting and fire arms ownership ) , but then you have Republicans ( Who defend fire arms ownership and hunting ) .

Once again .... Thank you so much for educating me and helping me obtain an insider's perspective about the current state of hunters and fire arms owners in Great Britain .

Yes, it's a difficult one Major ( I do apologise sir, but I cannot recall your first name).

The hunt sabbing thing mostly popped up around and before the hunting (foxes with hounds) ban in the early 00's (2004 maybe?). They'd been about a lot before hand attached to the extreme animal rights fringe a la PETA, but the ban got them a lot of media attention and subsequently brought them into the mainstream. Once there, the've never really left. They spend their time these days disrupting what remains of the old fox hunting crowd who now do artificial recreations of the sport with scent lines. Lots of bad blood exists betwen the groups as you can imagine and they've caused a lot of aggro, property damage and other offences in their crusade (admittedly not helped in some cases by the perfectly reasonable if ill-considered retailiation by the hunting community).

Having decimated one country pursuit, they're now branding out into game shooting (pheasants mostly). Unfortunately, the general public either doesn't care about shooting at all, doesn't know it exists or have the usual 'gut-feeling' opposition brough on by the likes of Disney teaching that animals are just fluffy people. As such, they get a degree of public support and financial and media backing from organisations like the RSPCA. This makes any real action taken against them politically difficult. Supporting hunting or shooting is certainly not a vote winner here.

As for our political parties. Well. I'd say in fairness to the Conservatives, that actually, they don't generally oppose shooting at an institutional level. They don't support it (see political difficulties re. votes above), but generally are quite happy to ignore this area all together unless they think it's a major vote winner (see knee-jerk reactions after every shooting over here when public perception does genuinely swing against guns briefly).

For Labour, they do oppose it, but on the grounds of class, not moral opposition to shooting as such (for the most part). Their view is that 'toffs' shoot, and for labour, anything that curbs or hurts the 'upper classes' or is seen as supporting the working classes is worthwhile. Personally, I think this perception is wrong as stated in my previous post, but again, British shooting really does struggle with this image problem. A throw back to the old Victorian estates exacerbated by vitriol spewed in the left leaning press outlets about the very upper end of the shooting sports.

See here for an example of the kind of crap peddled to the left leaning elements of UK society: https://www.theguardian.com/comment...elfth-times-up-for-inglorious-victorian-sport

The real issues though is the bureaucratic elements of government. They do see the reduction of arms in the hands of civilians as a noble goal in and of itself and have worked diligently towards that end. I quote:

"The McKay report was produced in September 1972, but has never been made public. It is known, however, that the first of 70 conclusions reached in a summary of the report was that a reduction in the number of firearms in private hands was a desirable end in itself. The report contained no evidence to justify this conclusion."

Basically every chance they get they pull out this 1972 paper and work their way down the check list of potential restrictions and see what they can get to stick. Sadly, they're not doing badly at the game.

Al.
 
No apology necessary , Webley .
I believe that the error was mine ... Because I was the 1 who was translating the chapters from Riaz's ( Bengali ) book in to English , in order to post them on African Hunting Forums . When I was typing this article ... I should have added the word " Fabrique Nationale Sporting " in between " All " and " Mauser 98 " .

The 10.75×68 mm Mauser ( .423 Mauser ) calibre Fabrique Nationale Mauser 98 rifles were all built with the " Oberndorf Style " magazine floor plate release catch .
Ah I see! Well it's all good either way and no harm done. I note also that Mr. Panther Shooter mentions a rifle of his own built on th-- [briefly stares at the ceiling because at least two jet fighter aircraft are flying over quite loudly at 10PM. Must they really?] --e M1903 Springfield, which he specifies he used to avoid the floorplate being opened like Mr. Sharrif's client's weapon. I do believe I may be convinced that a hinged floorplate is less desirable no matter how delightfully German it is on a Mauser.

And on a semi-related note to the British (or at least Commonwealth) gun industry, have you or any of your friends had a client use a Canadian Ross rifle?
 
Ah I see! Well it's all good either way and no harm done. I note also that Mr. Panther Shooter mentions a rifle of his own built on th-- [briefly stares at the ceiling because at least two jet fighter aircraft are flying over quite loudly at 10PM. Must they really?] --e M1903 Springfield, which he specifies he used to avoid the floorplate being opened like Mr. Sharrif's client's weapon. I do believe I may be convinced that a hinged floorplate is less desirable no matter how delightfully German it is on a Mauser.

And on a semi-related note to the British (or at least Commonwealth) gun industry, have you or any of your friends had a client use a Canadian Ross rifle?

I am familiar with the Canadian Ross rifle , Webley . It was chambered in .280 Ross . I have 2 clients bring them to India . 1 gentle man attempted to use it ... To hunt a Neelgai . The other gentle man attempted to use it ... To hunt a forest panther . Based upon my 2 personal experiences with the calibre ... I do not think too highly of it .

It is my understanding , that Ross rifles chambered in .303 British ... Were the service Canadian rifle , for the bulk of the 1st World War . However , tbe rifles were plagued with safety issues . I do have a book in my personal library , however ... Where the author ( A Canadian Marks Man , during the 1st World War ) speaks quite highly of them , in terms of their accuracy .

And yes . Panther Shooter owns and hunts ( Almost exclusively ) with a 7 mm Remington magnum calibre bolt rifle ... Which is built on a Springfield Model 1903 action . He absolutely loves and adores that rifle ( He even personally dispatched 2 man eating forest panthers in 1980 and 1983 , by utilizing that rifle ) .
 

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But as I initially said, a hinged floorplate at all is certainly one more thing to go wrong and I'm rethinking my interest in them. Perhaps a simple button to aid in removing the floorplate would be better; it would still take a deliberate action to remove it and not immediately risk dumping the cartridges on the ground at an unfortunate moment.

In 1898, Paul Mauser created the M98 rifle, to hunt the most dangerous game of the world.....men.

The intentional use of a tool was neccessary to open the floorplate, accidential opening was impossible.

Never ever a soldier using a M98 battle rifle reported the accidential opening of a floorplate.

Later on, creativ gunsmith tried to improve Mausers solution...... and faild.

Whenever you hunt dangerous game, stay with Paul Mausers design.

If you do not want,....have a Mannlicher-Schoenauer. ;)


HWL
 
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I would argue that the British gun industry is alive and relatively well...however the focus today is mostly best guns...shotguns and rifles alike.. The blue collar guns are gone.. However, many of the non-best guns are still around and bargains are out there in Europe on boxlock double rifles, prices are MUCH lower than in the US..

Many of the boxlocked rifles are very well maid BTW..

Companies like Purdey and Westley Richards have more .500, .577 and .600 rifles on order than before WW2...last time I visited Purdey they had finished a beauty of a .600..
 
I have an old photo somewhere of a Sherman driving over dozens - would bring tears of joy to an urban Californian’s eyes.

Many more were “liberated” by allied servicemen - particularly Americans (the Brits were Pikers in comparison) who could easily and legally transport them back to the US and many of whom were hunters. It is why we often see them emerging from estates here and languishing on tables at Local gun shows.

I assure you that there are many Californians, urban and rural, who appreciate fine European firearms.

Many of the long arms brought back by WW2 servicemen suffered 'duffle cuts' in their stocks as returning GIs 'luggage' was limited to items that fit (could be hidden) within a closed duffle bag. The cuts were typically made where a barrel band would hide them upon reassembly.
 
What happened to British gun industry?
The same thing that happened to other parts of the industry there:
It's disintegrating because it's no longer competitive.
Just because an oil sheikh once buys a Purdey, it is not possible to speak of an industry.
Take a good, experienced gunsmith, no matter what part of the world he comes from, and let him produce his gun carefully.
Why he demands 15-20 times more in England is not clear to me.
 
Dear all,

We all know about English bespoke guns. they are now also having their renaissance as well.
So this is not about them.

The question is why the British gun industry does not produce any more rifles and shotguns for middle class customers? What happened to british factory guns?

What are the background reasons behind general lack of British factory rifles and shotguns on the market?

Easy!! Liberalism has taken a grip of most men's balls and squeezed the masculinity out of them. I'm not saying you have to be a butch man to hunt as there are many nice ladies that hunt too. But I feel the decline of the British gun industry has been due to a drop in demand and that has been due to a massive disconnect between people and where there food comes from. And the ball squeezing thing too.
The British middle class has also become a place where MOST of the men are pussies. I must say I love going to parties and telling them I hunt and see them back down in fear but also an element of disgust. I do make it a point to say the difference is I'm willing to do the dirty work for my meat you just want to by is from a store and not work for it.
This is normally the point when the host tells me I'm upsetting people and tell them its not my fault they have vaginas where their dicks should be
 
I find that most curious since, as I mentioned, only one military-issued rifle had that style and most of the Mauser 98 sporting rifle's I've seen feature the horizontally-turning lever fitted directly to the floorplate. I suppose that the floorplate-mounted lever would require a more deliberate action to move, although if it were to get caught on something...

But as I initially said, a hinged floorplate at all is certainly one more thing to go wrong and I'm rethinking my interest in them. Perhaps a simple button to aid in removing the floorplate would be better; it would still take a deliberate action to remove it and not immediately risk dumping the cartridges on the ground at an unfortunate moment.

From the 1939 Stoeger:
38583456wm.jpg


Detail from above:
38583457mt.jpg


The Mannlicher Schoenauer had no such issues and, with proper fitting cartridges, feeds with flawless reliability every time.
To remove the MS magazine requires a simple, yet very deliberate, maneuver. A spring is depressed through an access hole, the floor plate is turned, and only then can the Schoenauer spool magazine be removed by pulling it downward.
38583506sn.jpg


To empty the magazine quickly one may simply depress the release button along the right side rail. Again a simple yet deliberate move, highly unlikely if not impossible to do accidentally:
38583546dd.png


Loading is done from above, singly or with stripper clip, just as an early Mauser.
38583477cy.jpg

38583479gm.jpg


Animation of MS action:
 

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Window.JPG


For many years we went hunting in England.The hunt and our host was always great.
I can only say the best of him.
Nevertheless, for me this sign has been a perfect symbol of the British doom:
It's been there for years !!!!!
In other countries they would have simply repaired the window.
Done.
 
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@norfolk shooter
Dear norfolk shooter, quite an explicit answer!

I suspect that you haven't discovered your feminine side, yet?

However, if there is ever a chance, I would be happy to buy you a drink, and listen to all your hunting stories!!!
 
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Shooting in the U.K. is alive and well no matter what the press and social media would have you believe.

I know more people with firearms now than I did ten or fifteen years ago.
There is an element of indifference throughout the main population, no one gives a damn if I go shooting, in fact a lot of people are interested in what I do and everyone is happy to receive a pack of venison sausages.

There is the minority which unfortunately seem to generate the most noise that would have you believe otherwise and shout loudly at every minor triumph but ignore the real statistics, after all, it would do their agenda no good at all if they were proved wrong.

The gun industry is there and several fine manufacturers of weapons are thriving.

True, the high end makers and custom makers are those who are doing well, there is no middle market, off the shelf gun maker that we can turn to for an affordable new weapon.
Not all of us can afford a Rigby or Purdey hunting rifle.

It's supply and demand. A middle of the road maker will need to compete with Sako, the Blaser/Sauer/Mauser conglomerate, Schultz and Larsen, Tikka to name just a few.
These established makers seem to have the European market sewn up and the competition is fierce because they produce quality, affordable products.
I don't know anyone who owns or shoots a British made weapon.

Unless someone can produce a quality, fairly priced gun that is more appealing to the main stream shooter or hunter than the well known makers then they will fail.

The market is there but it's hard to break into.

As for politics, Johnson has an anti hunting, anti shooting, anti meat eating witch shacked up with him and unfortunately, she is using her own prejudices to whisper in his ear and influence his policy making.

This is the real problem facing the U.K. going forward.
 
I assure you that there are many Californians, urban and rural, who appreciate fine European firearms.

Many of the long arms brought back by WW2 servicemen suffered 'duffle cuts' in their stocks as returning GIs 'luggage' was limited to items that fit (could be hidden) within a closed duffle bag. The cuts were typically made where a barrel band would hide them upon reassembly.
Very few of the total. Only those with mannlicher style stocks, and usually only those that were of rifle rather than carbine length. Moreover, even a buck private didn't have to hide such a "souvenir." Permits were readily issued for handguns and long guns. The Army (which included the Army Air Force in those days) would even ship a 25lb box home for a soldier. Officers were authorized more depending upon rank. With respect to firearms, "captured enemy equipment" could be anything from a Luger to a JP Sauer sidelock to, in this case, a .25 caliber pistol.

With respect to California, I am sure you are correct, though a few of them might consider organizing to prevent the ever more draconian gun control measures overwhelming your state. One of my engineering centers was in Dominguez Hills when I was in corporate America. I was out there monthly for a decade. I had around 400 people who worked for me there. I never encountered another gun owner. On the other hand, the engineering center in Huntsville, AL was, shall we say, different.

And I am not just picking on California and the LA basin. Every growing urban centers and populations are gaining greater and greater control of our sport and the tools necessary to pursue it. That should be obvious to anyone. But we are drifting away from the intent of this thread.

certificate.jpg
 
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View attachment 349108

For many years we went hunting in England.The hunt and our host was always great.
I can only say the best of him.
Nevertheless, for me this sign has been a perfect symbol of the British doom:
It's been there for years !!!!!
In other countries they would have simply repaired the window.
Done.
The Guns of August become ever more understandable. ;)
 
In 1898, Paul Mauser created the M98 rifle, to hunt the most dangerous game of the world.....men.

The intentional use of a tool was neccessary to open the floorplate, accidential opening was impossible.

Never ever a soldier using a M98 battle rifle reported the accidential opening of a floorplate.

Later on, creativ gunsmith tried to improve Mausers solution...... and faild.

Whenever you hunt dangerous game, stay with Paul Mausers design.

If you do not want,....have a Mannlicher-Schoenauer. ;)


HWL
Well since I don't want a Mannlicher-Schoenauer, that kinda makes things easier, don't it? ;)

But I'm still of the opinion that a very simple extended button on the floorplate catch of a standard Mauser 98 action wouldn't do much harm and would be the best compromise if I desired it. It would only remove the necessity for a tool and would still be far less prone to coming open compared to either the trigger-guard latch or the more common (that I've seen) swinging lever, and wouldn't require anything more than a simple part replacement and could be just as easily removed if I found I didn't care for it.

And not having a hinged floorplate or any kind of latch would be cheaper and more in keeping with what I have in mind, I expect...
 
View attachment 349108

For many years we went hunting in England.The hunt and our host was always great.
I can only say the best of him.
Nevertheless, for me this sign has been a perfect symbol of the British doom:
It's been there for years !!!!!
In other countries they would have simply repaired the window.
Done.
I suppose they didn't have a licence for window-replacement. Can't be going around fixing windows without a licence, you know.
 

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