Some rifles I have stocked or built

I really appreciate the time it took to work on these designs.

Hummer said:

I really appreciate the time it took to work on these designs.

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Appreciate that Hummer. It is simply attention to detail and investigating every facet of the whole package and that goes beyond simple cartridge design and into the realms of what makes some designs or aspects of some designs work better than others. Of course there are compromises to be considered like that between the short neck/ shoulder angle and throat longevity where the longer neck and harsher shoulder angle will have the burning powder pressure scouring effect hit the case neck instead of the throat. This is mitigated somewhat by the shallower seating of the longer bullet and the type of bullet used.
This is another good read on bullet shapes and how they effect what you can do within the confines of the chamber reamer to make an accurate rifle (all else being taken into account but this is one of the many areas that some of us tinkerers take into account during the long sleepless nights when we are in the midst of a new project build for an accurate rifle.
Tangent, Secant, Hybrid Ogive Bullets
Bryan Litz Explains Characteristics of Different Bullet Ogive Designs

In discussions of ballistics, you’ll see references to “tangent” and “secant” bullet shapes. We know that, for many readers, these terms can be confusing. To add to the confusion, bullet makers don’t always identify their projectiles as secant or tangent designs. This article provides a basic explanation of tangent and secant designs, to help you understand the characteristics of both bullet shapes.


Tangent Ogive vs. Secant Ogive vs. Hybrid
Most match bullets produced today use a tangent ogive profile, but the modern VLD-style bullets employ a secant profile. To further complicate matters, the latest generation of “Hybrid” projectiles from Berger Bullets feature a blended secant + tangent profile to combine the best qualities of both nose shapes. The secant section provides reduced drag, while the tangent section makes the bullet easier to tune, i.e. less sensitive to seating depth position.

Berger Bullets ballistician Bryan Litz explains tangent and secant bullet ogive designs in a glossary section of his Applied Ballistics website, which we reprint below. Bryan then explains how tangent and secant profiles can be combined in a “hybrid” design.

How Bullet Ogive Curves are Defined
While the term “ogive” is often used to describe the particular point on the bullet where the curve reaches full bullet diameter, in fact the “ogive” properly refers to the entire curve of the bullet from the tip to the full-diameter straight section — the shank. Understanding then, that the ogive is a curve, how is that curve described?

LITZ: The ogive of a bullet is usually characterized by the length of its radius. This radius is often given in calibers instead of inches. For example, an 8 ogive 6mm bullet has an ogive that is a segment of a circular arc with a radius of 8*.243 = 1.952”. A .30-caliber bullet with an 8 ogive will be proportionally the same as the 8 ogive 6mm bullet, but the actual radius will be 2.464” for the .30 caliber bullet.

For a given nose length, if an ogive is perfectly tangent, it will have a very specific radius. Any radius longer than that will cause the ogive to be secant. Secant ogives can range from very mild (short radius) to very aggressive (long radius). The drag of a secant ogive is minimized when its radius is twice as long as a tangent ogive radius. In other words, if a tangent ogive has an 8 caliber radius, then the longest practical secant ogive radius is 16 calibers long for a given nose length.”




Ogive metrics, and Rt/R
LITZ: There is a number that’s used to quantify how secant an ogive is. The metric is known as the Rt/R ratio and it’s the ratio of the tangent ogive radius to the actual ogive radius for a given bullet. In the above example, the 16 caliber ogive would have an Rt/R ratio of 0.5. The number 0.5 is therefore the lowest practical value for the Rt/R ratio, and represents the minimum drag ogive for a given length. An ogive that’s perfectly tangent will have an Rt/R ratio of 1.0. Most ogives are in between an Rt/R of 1.0 and 0.5. The dimensioned drawings at the end of my Applied Ballistics book provide the bullets ogive radius in calibers, as well as the Rt/R ratio. In short, the Rt/R ratio is simply a measure of how secant an ogive is. 1.0 is not secant at all, 0.5 is as secant as it gets.

Hybrid Bullet Design — Best of Both Worlds?
Bryan Litz has been developing a number of modern “Hybrid” design bullets for Berger. The objective of Bryan’s design work has been to achieve a very low drag design that is also “not finicky”. Normal (non-hybrid) secant designs, such as the Berger 105gr VLD, deliver very impressive BC values, but the bullets can be sensitive to seating depth. Montana’s Tom Mousel has set world records with the Berger 105gr VLD in his 6mm Dasher, but he tells us “seating depth is critical to the best accuracy”. Tom says a change of .005″ in seating depth “can cause the group size to increase substantially”. In an effort to produce more forgiving high-BC bullets, Bryan Litz has developed a hybrid tangent/secant bullet shape. This is explained in the illustration below.

My Dad was a master watchmaker and a master engraver. He was offered a job engraving money plates for our Treasury Dept and turned it down. Thus I can really appreciate fine workmanship.

Apparently you are into knife making. Have you ever heard of George Herron in the states?

Hummer said:

My Dad was a master watchmaker and a master engraver. He was offered a job engraving money plates for our Treasury Dept and turned it down. Thus I can really appreciate fine workmanship.

Apparently you are into knife making. Have you ever heard of George Herron in the states?

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I hadn't but just googled him and see a very heavy Loveless influence in his knives.

George only lived about 15 miles from me and his knives were beautiful. What was not known about him was he was also a gun lover. He had a pond next to his shop and he was constantly watching for snakes to be swimming across and he would take their heads off from 100 yards.

He died a number of years ago and his pipe is in his right hand in his casket.

George was a as we say here "a real piece of work". His latest work was pocket knives and he put his name down inside the knife on the inside of the back strap.

I made a couple friends on New Zealand Palma Team in 76, Maury Gordon and John Hastie. I estimate they would be 80+ if still living. Have another friend from states who is there now I shot with for many years. Mitchell Maxberry who was a national champion here in fullbore shooting before moving there.

I went down in the NZ team area at Camp Perry during the Palma Matches and really enjoyed meeting the shooters from NZ. Great bunch of folks.

He and I tied in 1986 for the US Palma Trophy Match and we both had same score in points but I had one more X than he did and that broke the tie. I had the NRA Photographer take a pic of both of us holding the Palma Trophy that year.

Von Gruff said:

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen
The neck length is something I took from the 300 Win mag design in that a caliber length was sufficient for good accuracy especially if the brass was just neck sized to keep alignment good and I see you have done the same thing.
I found/find the reloading bench and the playing with the finer end of the discipline to be a facinating side obsession of the shooting game.
This was an important piece of writing that gave me a lot if information. Secrets of the Houston warehouse has to be one of the most in depth investigations into rifle accuracy and well worth the read.
http://2poqx8tjzgi65olp24je4x4n.wpe...-shooting-magazine-special-edition-1-1993.pdf

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Von Gruff
I stole the idea from Newton and his improved cases where he moved the shoulder forward especially in his 35 Newton. The shoulder angle was chosen to improve feeding over the Ackley 40 degrees to increase the case capacity.
Fortunately much case forming is a lot easier than yours. All I have to do is reduce the neck to 25 caliber for half it's length. This leaves a,false shoulder. Fortunately I don't have to worry where the shoulder is as the parent case is rimmed. I did try making standard 25/303 cases and forming them but I suffered a 6 percent case loss. The other method is zero case loss.
I then load with a good load from the Roberts and fire form.
A lot of people don't believe the velocity I get including me at times but chronograph don't lie.
With the 115 grain nosler combined technology silver tip sighted 2 inches high @100 yards it zeros around 275 yards and is 10 inches low at 400 yards from memory. This is with a scope height if 1.8 inches.
Cheers mate
Bob Nelson

Von Gruff said:

With the barrel screwed in the magazine needed attention as it needed to be single stack to work with the larger front of the cartridge compared to the 303. I took the 22 LR as an example of the shape needed to successfully hold the cases at the proper angle and to release with bolt travel at the right time.
A section from an old vehicle roof rack would serve as a follower and while I havent shown it I needed to sit a wedge between the base of the mag insert (riveted to the mag through the drain hole) and the spring base to sit the rear of the cartridge up high enough to give correct orientation for delivery into the chamber.
View attachment 318666 View attachment 318667 View attachment 318668 View attachment 318669 View attachment 318670 View attachment 318671

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Von Gruff
Very similar to how I got my No4 SMLE action to feed the 444 marlin.
Great minds think alike. I also had to modify the ejector screw to get it to eject properly.
Cheers mate Bob

Bob Nelson 35Whelen said:

Von Gruff

Fortunately much case forming is a lot easier than yours. All I have to do is reduce the neck to 25 caliber for half it's length. This leaves a,false shoulder.
Cheers mate
Bob Nelson

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The serious forming was only to get a go/no guage for the GS to chamber the barrel. I have two main sets of cases with the cheap ones I used for cast bullet shooting (and yes the 125gn cast bullet will run to over 2300fps but didn't get expansion with that alloy so my standard alloy at 1600fps has killed quite a few goats to about 150 yds) These are simply the 7.62x39 (Lapua) cases run through the die which like yours leaves a false shoulder but I add a .006 shim on top of the epoxied .05 shim on the shell holder to create a bit more safety to the light crush fit of the fireforming load. after that the .006 shim is not used again and the cases can be loaded as any other normal case can with the .05 shim on the shell holder keeping everything in order.
For my good hunting cases I have the Lapua Grendel case run through with a 30 cal expander button and then the same process is employed. really quite a simple process and the Wilson straightline dies are the very best to keep a zero run-out necked case and loaded cartridge.

Bob Nelson 35Whelen said:

Von Gruff
Very similar to how I got my No4 SMLE action to feed the 444 marlin.
Great minds think alike. I also had to modify the ejector screw to get it to eject properly.
Cheers mate Bob

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I used the MLE action and had no trouble with ejection after I filed the correct location clearance into the barrel chamber face. My only problem wiht the softer cast bullet (320gn) is that enthusiastic chambering can have the meplat catch on the upper edge of the chamber mouth and cause enough deformation to make chambering difficult but chambering a round with less urgency (that a charging bukll buff might cause) is enough to have 100% reliability and if it was going to be used to chase the big and the bad I would be using the Woodleigh bullet so that problem would simply dissapare with the change in bullet.

Von Gruff said:

The serious forming was only to get a go/no guage for the GS to chamber the barrel. I have two main sets of cases with the cheap ones I used for cast bullet shooting (and yes the 125gn cast bullet will run to over 2300fps but didn't get expansion with that alloy so my standard alloy at 1600fps has killed quite a few goats to about 150 yds) These are simply the 7.62x39 (Lapua) cases run through the die which like yours leaves a false shoulder but I add a .006 shim on top of the epoxied .05 shim on the shell holder to create a bit more safety to the light crush fit of the fireforming load. after that the .006 shim is not used again and the cases can be loaded as any other normal case can with the .05 shim on the shell holder keeping everything in order.
For my good hunting cases I have the Lapua Grendel case run through with a 30 cal expander button and then the same process is employed. really quite a simple process and the Wilson straightline dies are the very best to keep a zero run-out necked case and loaded cartridge.

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Von Gruff
All my reloading is done using Lee dies Lee press. Good value and capable of producing very accurate ammo.
Cheers mate Bob

Bob Nelson 35Whelen said:

Von Gruff
All my reloading is done using Lee dies Lee press. Good value and capable of producing very accurate ammo.
Cheers mate Bob

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I have heard that and I do have a couple of sets but in the main I pick individual dies for specific uses. May be a bit over the top but then so are many of the little idiosyncrasies those of who play with these things indulge in.

A bit more time on this one today and finished the action inlet
When I am getting down close I will put a piece of tape on the action flat so when I start to dust it with the soot I know I am close. Then it is just a matter of taking the tape out and doingn the final scrape and it is done. I know it will be fully bedded on the wood. I do expect that when it arrives at the owners home he may want to bed his action into the stock so will hog it out but I know it is tight when it leave here.

Turning the blank over I made a start on the Bottom Metal and I have a bit of a cheat here as I cut one down that had the magazine and trigger bow damaged so it makes an ideal candidate for an in letting guide.

With the guide sitting in place I can mark round it



So with a inch flat and a small 1/2 round carver the outline can be cut in and start getting down to depth

Not a lot to get the rest of the necessary removed to get the cut down plate down to depth


Then the magazine well could dimensions could be marked in and some more wood removeds and to do much of the mag wall I find the smooth side of a farriers rasp to be the ideal tool. With the stock set level in the vice it is not difficult to use the rasp marginally off level to file in the draft of the mag well. chisels, scrapers and smaller files are needed to finish getting the metal in. Being able to turn the wood over and see from the other side makes this a reasonably simple operation.


It is then that the bottom metal can be settled into its rightfull place

To prevent the stock splitting I drilled in for the action stock bolt and cut in for a threaded rod between the trigger and the rear of the mag well and epoxied it in place.

Before I started the barrel channel today I decided to put a handle on this chisel. It was my fathers and was given to him when he left one school by the one of the teachers because of his liking for woodwork so that would have been in 1935 or 6. It has had the handle broken off and used like this for as long as I remember and it has been in my shed for the last 23years so it was time to put it right. The piece of oak is from some board cut from a tree my father helped cut down and dress in about 1955 so it was apropriate to use it for this.

It is one of the chisels I use for the barrel channel (I did grind the shape on it some years back) but the most used one is a smaller 1/2 inch round end and a 1 inch flat befor I start in with the scrapers



It was a good place to leave it for the week with everything settled into place. Next I will fit the a spacer to the butt pad and get that and the grip cap attached so I can start to cut in the shaping lines.

A bit more progress with the 1/8 inch micarta spacer epoxied to the butt pad.


Thumb notch and bolt release cut in and for this it is easier/quicker to just use a couple of soft faced clamp to tighten the action into the wood for trials as I get the recesses down to the right level. There is a lot of file a bit and check to get this right with just the few thou clearance under the bolt release.


Next was some shaping to the forestock and I start by marking in the major plan lines with a specially tapered board I keep for this purpose. I always like to have a very slim fore stock as it sits down into the hand better and is an aid in aiming with it sitting like this which allows for more accurate "pointing" before you get onto the sights.


Next was to get the bolt handle notch sorted and the loading port filed in.


I finished the day by getting the steel grip cap epoxied into place. It is not fixed permanently as I use vaseline as release agent and fill the hollow in the back of the cap with epoxy, drill a few shallow holes into the wood round the inside of where the cap will sit and screw it into place. This way when I am doing the shaping take the cap off to get the rough shape done and only replace the cap for the final fine sanding and polish the edges of the cap at the same time. I know it will always go back the same way with a punch mark on the undersside of the cap denotes the front.

Von Gruff said:

A bit more progress with the 1/8 inch micarta spacer epoxied to the butt pad.
View attachment 342913

Thumb notch and bolt release cut in and for this it is easier/quicker to just use a couple of soft faced clamp to tighten the action into the wood for trials as I get the recesses down to the right level. There is a lot of file a bit and check to get this right with just the few thou clearance under the bolt release.
View attachment 342915

Next was some shaping to the forestock and I start by marking in the major plan lines with a specially tapered board I keep for this purpose. I always like to have a very slim fore stock as it sits down into the hand better and is an aid in aiming with it sitting like this which allows for more accurate "pointing" before you get onto the sights.
View attachment 342914
View attachment 342916
Next was to get the bolt handle notch sorted and the loading port filed in.
View attachment 342917

I finished the day by getting the steel grip cap epoxied into place. It is not fixed permanently as I use vaseline as release agent and fill the hollow in the back of the cap with epoxy, drill a few shallow holes into the wood round the inside of where the cap will sit and screw it into place. This way when I am doing the shaping take the cap off to get the rough shape done and only replace the cap for the final fine sanding and polish the edges of the cap at the same time. I know it will always go back the same way with a punch mark on the undersside of the cap denotes the front.

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I like the methods you’ve come up with to streamline the shaping process. It’s very logical. Seeing the various jigs and templates guys make to speed up the process is almost as useful as seeing methodology. That’s going to be a fine rifle when you’re done.

You inspired me to tackle a woodworking project this week. We needed a place to keep shoes so I built a large shoe and boot rack for the hallway. My skills don’t match yours so will not post pictures to embarrass myself but I did put together some sanding paddles that I have found to be useful as makeshift rasps.



The Klingspors woodworking store sells boxes of assorted leftovers from the sanding belts they make. The boxes are very cheap and make for pretty high quality sandpaper. As long as you don’t crease the paper backed ones they last forever. I’ve glued them to PVC pipe to finish barrel channels to.

I use a lot of 60 grit emery paper for the cleaning up the rough shaping with a long 2 inch wide strip "shoe shined" over the fore stock to get the rounded shape and have a gib board / sheetrock hand sander that is a 10 x 4 inch paddle with hard rubber (like old mouse pad) and a D handle for making sure there are no ripples where there are supposed to be straight lines. A wooden concrete "float" cut to length could be used just as effectively
A length (about 20 inches) of an old barrel is used to do the final barrel channel finished with the paper wrapped round it. The barrels generally have a similar taper to them so by choosing the part of the sanding barrel that matches the channel you are sanding for, the correct taper can he finalised.

Von Gruff said:

I use a lot of 60 grit emery paper for the cleaning up the rough shaping with a long 2 inch wide strip "shoe shined" over the fore stock to get the rounded shape and have a gib board / sheetrock hand sander that is a 10 x 4 inch paddle with hard rubber (like old mouse pad) and a D handle for making sure there are no ripples where there are supposed to be straight lines. A wooden concrete "float" cut to length could be used just as effectively
A length (about 20 inches) of an old barrel is used to do the final barrel channel finished with the paper wrapped round it. The barrels generally have a similar taper to them so by choosing the part of the sanding barrel that matches the channel you are sanding for, the correct taper can he finalised.

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The same store sells fabric belt scraps too. They are zombie green and last forever. I use them shoe shine style like you say. Have to be real careful though. I’m, apparently, very right handed and have made some lopsided shapes with this method. Very useful in getting the handle shape near the bowl on spoons.