The pursuit of accuracy - a blessing or a curse?

Alistair

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I see many post on here about the pursuit of accuracy in handloading. I thought I'd share my opinions on this topic and leave the floor open for you fine gentlemen to chip in. My tin hat is firmly in place, so don't hold back!

So many times I see folks saying on the internet "I've got a nice hunting load that does MOA, but I really wanna shrink that down to 0.5MOA, what do?" Now this is in some ways a noble cause, but on the other hand... why?

Personally, I like to think in terms of 'practical accuracy'. Namely, what accuracy does a given situation require, and even more importantly, what accuracy can I actually make use of under those conditions. I use this to guide my reloading process.

For an example, I have only 1 rifle, of 4, that is genuinely 'sub-MOA'.

It's a 6.5CM Tikka Tac A1. I use it for Precision rifle and (casual) F class comps at the range, from 300 to 1500yds. It shoots roughly 0.5MOA 5 round groups all day every day, maybe as small as 0.3MOA if I'm on form and the wind is co-operating.

Now for this rifle, that is genuinely 'useful' and 'necessary' accuracy. I need a rifle that'll put 20 rounds into a 5 inch circle at 1000yds. To even have a chance of being competitive therefore, one needs a rifle that'll do 0.5MOA.

To achieve this consistently involves a whole heap of faff, kit and expense. Loading the rounds is a highly involved, time consuming process with many many steps and much weighing, sorting and checking. The development of the load was equally involved and one must constantly be on the look out for factors such as batch to batch variation in components that can mess things around. Component cost is also high.

But, in this case it's worth it. The rifle is easy enough to shoot that I can make use of the performacne and the use case of the rifle demands it, so needs must.

In contrast, my .270win hunting rifle does an honest 5 round group MOA. I could probably improve this a bit using the process above, but why would I? The use case of that rifle dictates a load that'll put 1 round from a cold barrel into a 6 inch circle at ranges from 0 to 300yds. That's all the accuracy I actually need. Equally, when I shoot that rifle, it's often not under ideal conditions. I can be tired, I can have an awkward position, I can be under considerable time pressure, suffering from adrenaline and shooting at uncertain ranges. In almost all cases, even at 1MOA, the rifle is not the limiting factor, I am.

Therefore, I choose to cut out a huge load of faff, save time in loading, save on components and do a much less in depth load development procedure. Does this produce 'the best possible round' for that rifle? Probably not. But it allows me to get to a point where the kit is not limiting. At the end of the day, that's the goal here.

Taking this to extremes, I also have a 44Rem Mag marlin 1894. It shoots my plinking loads into maybe 2-3MOA off a bench at 100.

But then, I only ever shoot this rifle over open sights, invariably in dynamic disciplines at large targets and from unstable positions. I'll also never shoot it past 100 except, perhaps, for a laugh. Again, I could probably stick a scope on it, do a load of load development work and reload to the best of my ability and improve this massively. But once again, why?

The rifle gives all the accuracy I can practically utilise with pretty much any random load (my load development involved picking a random powder which was cheap and in my local shop from the book, a cheap hardcast bullet, picking a charge from 1/3 the way up the book values, loading to standard COAL and giving it a go. It did a couple inches, so I left it alone), any components, cheap dies and with thrown charges. It's cheap and incredibly quick and easy to make up ammo, which is good, as I shoot fair bit through it!

So that's my philosophy. Balance the faff and expense of the process against what you actually need the rifle to do, and don't get too hung up on that extra half an inch (unless, of course, your situation demands it).

What's your view, people of AH? Am I a heathen for not demanding 0.1MOA of everything, or does this more pragmatic approach appeal?

Al
 
Hunting is a hobby. A wonderful hobby that puts us as close to the earth and nature as we can get. The benefit of eating venison five of the last seven nights is a gift from that hobby. So long as the rifle is accurate enough to work, no need to chase more accuracy.

Now if a guy has extra time on his hands and wants to tinker and find the best possible round, then there is value in that time spent perfecting one form of art in the hobby. “Good enough” is when the effort put into the hobby does not bring negative emotional response by not getting it to be perfect.

Chasing a number is many times unfulfilling.

I don’t reload and don’t shoot F class. 1 MOA is definitely good enough for me. When my kids leave the house and I have time to mess with reloading, I may change my opinion.
 
My most accurate gun is my 375 H&H. It will shoot 1/2” groups at 100 every day with 250 grain TTSXs off bench, but I take a lot more pride in shooting a good group off sticks or any practical field position over perfect accuracy on a bench.
 
My most accurate gun is my 375 H&H. It will shoot 1/2” groups at 100 every day with 250 grain TTSXs off bench, but I take a lot more pride in shooting a good group off sticks or any practical field position over perfect accuracy on a bench.

That's good going! My .375H&H does about 1.5MOA. I have a sneaking suspicion that the load is better than this, but that's what I can reliably and repeatably hold at present. More practice required!

Al.
 
This small groups ,MOA rifles and long range hunting is the new rage. For years Weatherby lead the factory rifles with a 1.5" guarantee at 100 yards.
Most big game is shot, less than 300 yards. To do this you don't need more than 2" group at 100 yards which should produce a 6" group at 300
What l have witnessed "most" shooters can't shoot any better than a 2" group at 100, no matter how good the rifle shoots.
I am talking big game rifles
Matching the the cartridge and the bullet to the game is much more important that a .5" group.
 
That's good going! My .375H&H does about 1.5MOA. I have a sneaking suspicion that the load is better than this, but that's what I can reliably and repeatably hold at present. More practice required!

Al.
The load is 75 grains of RL-15 with a 250 grain TTSX if you want to give it a try in yours? I wish my 223 would should as accurate as my 375, much easier on shoulder and cheaper to shoot.
 
I happen to fall into a similar thought process as you do. Most will never need accuracy beyond what modern factory ammo can achieve, including inexpensive stuff like CoreLokt. By the way, that's no knock on CoreLokt, I shoot plenty of it. And the "quick production" handloads like what you described with inexpensive components, common availability, and lack of load-working nor painstaking weighing/measuring/sorting should be equally effective, or even slightly more so.

Extreme accuracy and the precision hand loading, and time it takes to achieve, is for one of two reasons in my book. #1 is purpose: the need to put 20 rounds in a 5" circle at 1000+ yards requires much more than most factory or rapid production ammo can achieve. #2 is "Because I can:" I have the time, resources, and willingness to do it, so why not.

I reload for a couple of my varmint rifles, where I like to stretch beyond 500 yards and be able to hit a prairie dog. Often the conditions are far from ideal (constantly changing angles and therefore wind direction, aggressive winds, imperfect bench setup or body position, heat, variable altitudes, etc.), and pushing for anything more than the .5 MOA loads I've developed isn't something I feel necessary to do. I also reload for my original and primary deer rifle, a model 700 .30-06, because I genuinely enjoy the time at the loading bench. And I just got a press to do some 16 Ga reloading due to high cost of target rounds and limited availability/ selection of ammo in the States (and getting more rare by the year it seems like).

All of my loading is done because I enjoy it. As long as I can find reasonable loads, or if it can save me a few bucks, I'm happy. I dont shoot enough, nor have the time, to be a competitive shooter. I only need to put meat in my freezer, and be confident that I've got the components to hit what I'm aiming for. But anyone that wants to chase perfection or ability to cloverleaf at a grand, I wish them good luck!
 
I am a practical accuracy guy. I load my own and if I can get a consistent 2 to 2 1/2 inch group at 100 yards I'm satisfied. Once in awhile I can cloverleaf three rounds if conditions are right(off the bench). I do most all my shooting off sticks because that's how I hunt. My 7RM got a springbok at 268, my 375HH got one at 230 and another at 160. My 6.5CR took one at 286, all one shot kills. To me that's good hunting accuracy. Of course, my 7RM and 6.5CR are good for 10 inch steel at 1000 yds. Only did that at SAAM a couple times for fun just to see if I could.
 
What's your view, people of AH?
Interesting rifles are tikka!
I can get mine to 0.5 minutes with some factory match ammo.
But indeed you are right.

For match purposes, group must be as small as possible.
For hunting, just good enough, accurcy in range 1-2 moa, is sufficient.

If a hunter is too much involved in getting 0.5, 03, 0.25 moa from a rifle, and spends days in prone position with rifle at bench, then goes hunting in field condition, in totally different manner - standing, or from a stick, 0.25 moa will not help. Because then, he is untrained.
Bottom line is hunting rifle does not need top accuracy, but need a good handler, who can shoot it well from field positions standing, kneeling, etc..
 
I like to work my loads to the best I can for all the rifles in my house. My wife's .30-06 is a 1-1.25" group at 100 yards and is the least accurate in the safe. All others I can get 1" or better.

Do I need them that good for hunting? Probably not, so then why? Just because I enjoy the challenge. It's my hobby. I'm willing to spend money on the hobby just as some spend money on playing golf or some other hobby.
 
I see many post on here about the pursuit of accuracy in handloading. I thought I'd share my opinions on this topic and leave the floor open for you fine gentlemen to chip in. My tin hat is firmly in place, so don't hold back!

So many times I see folks saying on the internet "I've got a nice hunting load that does MOA, but I really wanna shrink that down to 0.5MOA, what do?" Now this is in some ways a noble cause, but on the other hand... why?

Personally, I like to think in terms of 'practical accuracy'. Namely, what accuracy does a given situation require, and even more importantly, what accuracy can I actually make use of under those conditions. I use this to guide my reloading process.

For an example, I have only 1 rifle, of 4, that is genuinely 'sub-MOA'.

It's a 6.5CM Tikka Tac A1. I use it for Precision rifle and (casual) F class comps at the range, from 300 to 1500yds. It shoots roughly 0.5MOA 5 round groups all day every day, maybe as small as 0.3MOA if I'm on form and the wind is co-operating.

Now for this rifle, that is genuinely 'useful' and 'necessary' accuracy. I need a rifle that'll put 20 rounds into a 5 inch circle at 1000yds. To even have a chance of being competitive therefore, one needs a rifle that'll do 0.5MOA.

To achieve this consistently involves a whole heap of faff, kit and expense. Loading the rounds is a highly involved, time consuming process with many many steps and much weighing, sorting and checking. The development of the load was equally involved and one must constantly be on the look out for factors such as batch to batch variation in components that can mess things around. Component cost is also high.

But, in this case it's worth it. The rifle is easy enough to shoot that I can make use of the performacne and the use case of the rifle demands it, so needs must.

In contrast, my .270win hunting rifle does an honest 5 round group MOA. I could probably improve this a bit using the process above, but why would I? The use case of that rifle dictates a load that'll put 1 round from a cold barrel into a 6 inch circle at ranges from 0 to 300yds. That's all the accuracy I actually need. Equally, when I shoot that rifle, it's often not under ideal conditions. I can be tired, I can have an awkward position, I can be under considerable time pressure, suffering from adrenaline and shooting at uncertain ranges. In almost all cases, even at 1MOA, the rifle is not the limiting factor, I am.

Therefore, I choose to cut out a huge load of faff, save time in loading, save on components and do a much less in depth load development procedure. Does this produce 'the best possible round' for that rifle? Probably not. But it allows me to get to a point where the kit is not limiting. At the end of the day, that's the goal here.

Taking this to extremes, I also have a 44Rem Mag marlin 1894. It shoots my plinking loads into maybe 2-3MOA off a bench at 100.

But then, I only ever shoot this rifle over open sights, invariably in dynamic disciplines at large targets and from unstable positions. I'll also never shoot it past 100 except, perhaps, for a laugh. Again, I could probably stick a scope on it, do a load of load development work and reload to the best of my ability and improve this massively. But once again, why?

The rifle gives all the accuracy I can practically utilise with pretty much any random load (my load development involved picking a random powder which was cheap and in my local shop from the book, a cheap hardcast bullet, picking a charge from 1/3 the way up the book values, loading to standard COAL and giving it a go. It did a couple inches, so I left it alone), any components, cheap dies and with thrown charges. It's cheap and incredibly quick and easy to make up ammo, which is good, as I shoot fair bit through it!

So that's my philosophy. Balance the faff and expense of the process against what you actually need the rifle to do, and don't get too hung up on that extra half an inch (unless, of course, your situation demands it).

What's your view, people of AH? Am I a heathen for not demanding 0.1MOA of everything, or does this more pragmatic approach appeal?

Al
I have been handloading for over 35 years. I started to save money visiting prairie dog towns while in college. In the early 90's I became friends with a retired engineer who was a bench rest competitor. Under his tutelage I became a full blown rifle nut. I spent countless hours testing loads to find "the one". I still do. While I would never admit it to my wife I own far too many rifles for my own good. They are all capable of 1 MOA or less. If not, down the road they go.

The biggest benefits in the quest for ultimate accuracy for a hunter are the requisite thousands of rounds downrange that make breath and trigger control second nature and perhaps most importantly the CONFIDENCE of knowing your bullet will go exactly where aimed and that you are on intimate terms with your rifle.

I have been blessed to have hunted in Africa, Canada, Alaska, and in many states in the lower 48 and while my accuracy from field positions is not equivalent to that from a bench I KNOW when shooting prone, sitting, kneeling, or standing off sticks what is going to happen when that trigger breaks.
 
I lean more toward what Rem700stw says.
My opinion: If your rifle can only shoot 2” groups and you can only hold a 2” group in the field, then you shoot a 4” group in the field. This is only a 200 yard capability I believe.
Thus I try to get the smallest groups off the bench possible to help as much as possible in the field.
One example is croc. The brain is about the size of a golf ball and the neck spine maybe twice that. Small targets at 100 yards. If you can only shoot a 4” group, you Likely don’t get your croc.
Also, my groups are only 3. Reasoning is except for coyotes and prairie dogs I have never fired more than 3 shots at any big game. I do occasionally shoot more than 3 shot groups just to see what heating the barrel up does. My coyote and prairie dog guns I will group as many as 10. They usually start opening after 5-6 rounds.

If you’re comfortable with 2”, it’s your money go out and hunt. JMO, but the kill tends to be a bit anticlimactic with the possible exception of DG.
 
I lean more toward what Rem700stw says.
My opinion: If your rifle can only shoot 2” groups and you can only hold a 2” group in the field, then you shoot a 4” group in the field. This is only a 200 yard capability I believe.
Thus I try to get the smallest groups off the bench possible to help as much as possible in the field.
One example is croc. The brain is about the size of a golf ball and the neck spine maybe twice that. Small targets at 100 yards. If you can only shoot a 4” group, you Likely don’t get your croc.
Also, my groups are only 3. Reasoning is except for coyotes and prairie dogs I have never fired more than 3 shots at any big game. I do occasionally shoot more than 3 shot groups just to see what heating the barrel up does. My coyote and prairie dog guns I will group as many as 10. They usually start opening after 5-6 rounds.

If you’re comfortable with 2”, it’s your money go out and hunt. JMO, but the kill tends to be a bit anticlimactic with the possible exception of DG.

It's certainly a fair position to take and there's certainly no 'right answer' here. I would however argue that you're just as likely to wobble a shot in as you are a shot out though, so as long as the rifle shoots a better group off the bench than I can make it shoot whilst hunting (spoiler, excepting the lever gun from prone perhaps, they all do), then the rifle isn't to blame!

Funny story on that actually. First time I shot TR (a hateful discipline) I was not at all comfortable with the sling, trigger and sight set up on the borrowed gun. I fired a couple rounds achieving a pretty crappy group (holding 2 ring, so about 40" at 600yds), then proceeded to horrifically pull the 6th shot. I thought I'd missed completely. Down goes the target, v bull. Turns out it's perfectly ok to pull a shot, as long as you miss read the wind to the same degree in the opposite direction! It's just the same with the grouping of your rifle.

I do have personal opinions on 3 round groups based on my stats modules at University, but 3 round groups are certainly common in shooting. Suffice to say though, my three round groups with any of my rifles are often markedly better than the 5 round groups, so perhaps it's a more flattering metric. Of course, from a statistical and normal distribution point of view 7 is better than 5 and 10 is better than 7 and so on and so forth, so you gotta draw the line somewhere!

For a competition gun, I'd define the 'real' accuracy of the gun on a much larger sample size. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that a rifle is only 'truly' 1MOA or whatever if you can consistently pick it up on any given day and shoot an entire course of fire (usually 20 rounds) into that group size every time.

Far too often I see people describing their rifle as x or y because they once shot a group of that size, even if it's not repeatable. I'd argue that's simply a gun and load that once shot MOA. Very different to an MOA gun and load. After all, I've shot 3 round MOA groups even with my lever gun, but ask me to do it right now, first time? Pass.

Al.
 
Al, valid point. My MRC 375 H&H can and will shoot (3) Barnes 250 TTSX into 1/2” every time I have tried it in preparation for my croc hunt. First, the bore has to be dirty or it will only shoot 3/4”-1” groups. Obviously I have to do my part from a solid rest.

FYI the croc hunt shot was at 90 yards and turned out perfect! I did place 2 more shots into it as my PH requested. One through the front shoulder and one through the pelvic just in case it started wiggling and got into the water. It never moved.

From your description of an MOA rifle none of the manufacturers who claim MOA accuracy could be valid. I don’t believe any rifle could fire 20 rounds in 1 MOA without cooling the barrel. JMO
 
Who was it that said “only accurate rifles are interesting”? I’m thinking Carmichael or Keith. Regardless, truer words never spoken as regards rifles. I find it very rewarding to work the kinks out of a rifle and turn a so-so shooter into a tack driver. I began reloading in 1975, hard to believe, and it still amazes me to see what you can accomplish with a little load tuning.
 
From your description of an MOA rifle none of the manufacturers who claim MOA accuracy could be valid. I don’t believe any rifle could fire 20 rounds in 1 MOA without cooling the barrel. JMO

Perhaps not. It is a more stringent measure of course, and a 3 round manufacturer performed MOA test is something at least and shows a level of intrinsic accuracy.

I would point out on the barrel heating thing, you don't necessarily need to shoot the group in a string. In fact, this is often a bad thing from a barrel wear perspective, and as you so rightly point out, hot barrels do wander, especially on sporter profiles. I'd also say that actually, shooter fatigure plays a part in this as well, especially in the larger calibres.

It's perfectly valid in my mind to shoot a single round, wait 5 mins for the barrel to cool, then shoot the next and continue in this way until you have shot your group. For a hunting rifle, this is probably a more representative sample as well.

Al.
 
In the field you don't shoot groups. One shot, maybe two at an animal so barrel heating is inconsequential. Shooter error or fatigue due to stress or wind is the big thing.
 
I do go to great pains to load, including my hunting ammo, to a certain standard. It's not like I'm having to burn 250+ rounds each week for some handgun competition or practice. So what if it takes some time to load a few for the range or even 20 or 40 for a trip!! I learned long ago the high end target game is a money and equipment chase and not really my cup of tea. I've built a couple of decent rifles that would do well under 1" @ 100... in the .1s- .2s @ 100 consistently in good conditions. These would be classed as slightly heavy hunting rifles and by no means full blown HEAVY 100 yd bench rest type things- I've shot a few of those but never owned one. I sold both of those super accurate "hunting" rifles several years ago. I didn't need them and funded other projects with the proceeds.

For my hunting ammo and rifle I really try to balance what I believe are the most important parts of the package- performance (that doesn't mean velocity either!), reliability and accuracy. Always with a with a high quality, tough hunting bullet. Some rifles and loads will shoot under 1' @ 100 and some won't. You can usually tell right away with a new or newly acquired rifle if it has the potential to be accurate or not. I don't fight the questionable rifles with an unending tedium of load tweaking. If they are more or less accurate to the purpose intended I'm OK with them. If 2-3 decent, known loads don't show promise along with a stock bedding, they will get sold or traded off. And it is very difficult to tell which rifle, new or used, may be acceptably accurate and which may not be before actually shooting them. A good barrel correctly fitted to a good action is a must. Next is the stock and bedding. Finally the whole package, ammo and rifle, must work reliably under any field condition. For new rifles, a decent, known load recipe will show the accuracy potential right away even though there may be other, more accurate loads possible for that individual rifle. I use a bench and chronograph when first working up a hunting load. That will tell a story about the rifle and load and keep my weaknesses out of the load work up process as much as possible. For hunting ammo, I pick a velocity objective which is usually 50-100 fps below the published "marketing" velocity. That will also help ensure reliable ammo/rifle function and prevent surprises in the field. I try to pick temperature insensitive powders for the same reason. I try to get to my objective velocity, with accuracy and no pressure signs and at a fairly low SD of velocity maybe 15 or less. THEN there can only be one excuse for any foul-ups on game. :)

I've also found some really strange things about accuracy in all manner of rifles over the years. Some fixable and explainable and some not easily understood at all. Keeps it interesting that way.
 
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