Captive Lions For Sale At Safari Club International

HSUS propaganda to stir the pot. Heavily edited crap. Lovely.
I swear I just saw Cecil run across my screen.

BRICKBURN said:

I swear I just saw Cecil run across my screen.

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Is this what you saw? Meow... This Lion is definitely wild!

Royal27 said:

Might as well do it right then.

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I am sorry but this photo does not stop an agreement. It just creates another argument, bra or no bra. My vote is no.

AfricaHunting.com said:

Is this what you saw? Meow... This Lion is definitely wild!

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Those ones are all definitely bloody wild ones!!!!

Lets stirr the pot a bit more but most people who are against CBL are the ones who are lucky enough to have never hunted behind a fence. That comes with a price! So are these hunters upset that a blue collar hunter is also able to have or had since imports are stopped, have a magnificent lion as a trophy?

The video shows the grey areas since the lions were not marketed answers were given but questions was asked that should not have been asked. The video only shows what it want's to show maybe the outer outfitters that were asked the same questions told them that they cannot talk aboout it at all. As said before antis are against hunting no matter what we do they are just using Disney to promote emotional feelings about hunting lions vs an impala.

I have no problem hunting behind a fence I have my own standard which I keep and adhere to I have however been lucky enough to guide or video hunts in unfenced areas in Africa. There is a big difference when I hunt for meat or a trophy. For meat I take what the bush supplies and if that means that I did not work hard for it I still have my meat. Hunting unfenced areas are solely trophy hunts PAC animals are mostly not legal being hunted by foreign clients especially if money is exchanged. Namibia has got a great program for own use animals and that is animals that are hunted on own use quota for the locals as meat. That inlcudes elephant, buffalo and hippo mught be more that I don't know off. Think Zim as something almost similar when it comes to non export animals.

BTW I know of a few hunters that have left Warthog safaris without getting their CBL lion in the days allocated and even one that extented the hunt with 5 days and still left empty handed. They are also one of the outfits that have more than just the lion to be hunted walking around some of them been walking around for more than a few years.

Fred Gunner said:

I agree but such a place does not exist. I've looked into this extensively.

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Maybe you should look harder. Where do you think the term Wild, Managed Lions come from?

Kitty Block gets all upset over hunting, whereas she's quite - hypocritically - happy to sit on her arse and do sweet fuck-all about the daily mass slaughter down at her local abbatoir - who's products provide ready convenience, consumption and total exploitation and expunging of similarly captive-bred species to all of her ilk!! Neither has she lifted her hypocritical arse off the sofa to protest about all those TV fishing shows where gleeful fishermen display their still struggling, suffocating and gaffed fish to the viewing public!!

Another stupid, prejudicial, hypocritical, anti-hunter venting their spleen on a subject they largely know sweet bugger all about!!

I've said this before on AH, and will say it again - when will the world-wide hunting fraternity combine resources and start fighting back?? We all love to go hunting, but it seems to me we're either too laid back, or happy to leave it to "the next guy" to make a stand.

Inevitably, given the many factions sprouting up against us and boycotting services etc, that we MUST make a stand if our sport is to survive. If not, then we have only ourselves to blame - and are deserving of our fate - ending up with us all packing it in and going out - not with a bang - but with a collective, humiliating, and defeatist, whimper!!

Just stating my own experience...

I have participated in two CBL lion hunts, never fired a shot at them, as I am not interested in shooting any cat, but just wanted to participate in the experience.

In both cases the different properties where the hunts took place were more than 50.000 acres.

I would not call that a pen

Ron Thomson also made a study of the CBL vs. canned hunting issue and his findings - which contradict the conclusions of @Fred Gunner - can be found at the True Green Alliance website.

In addition, for those without the attention span to read a bunch of stuff, in episodes 24 and 25 of the Africa's Sportsman Show, which can be found on YouTube, the hosts set out to find out what a CBL hunt is really like, taking two lions along the way (with double rifles - some pretty good shooting there!). They reach their own conclusions after their hunts, and again, those conclusions back up the experiences of most of us who have been on such hunts.

There are two ways of looking at this.

The first is that this sort of hunting isn't for you. Either you don't want to hunt captive bred animals (in which case you ought to be consistent), or you just don't want to hunt lions (some won't hunt what they won't eat). Both are positions which I can support even if they are not for me. In this case, you should not oppose those who do want to engage in this legal practice.

The second way to look at this is to say that there is something inherently illegitimate about hunting captive bred lions, on the basis that it is really "canned" hunting. In this case, I suggest that not only is there no real evidence to support your argument, but that if you do in fact hold this belief, you need to apply it across the board to all high fenced game hunting in South Africa, Namibia and elsewhere. If that is the case, you may need to look in a mirror and see if you aren't just a little bit like the animal rights people who value individual animals over species. I say that because without the South African model of game ranching, it's likely that South Africa would have more in common with Kenya rather than less when it comes to wildlife numbers. And when I say that there is no real evidence, I don't mean that there haven't been cases where people have engaged in lion hunts in a manner which is reprehensible as well as illegal. Obviously, some have. I've seen the video. But we don't stop people from legally hunting because poachers do the same thing in an illegal manner.

Hank2211 said:

Ron Thomson also made a study of the CBL vs. canned hunting issue and his findings - which contradict the conclusions of @Fred Gunner - can be found at the True Green Alliance website.

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Here is an article on AH by @Ron Thomson: Which Domino Will Be Next A Review Of The Canned Lion Hunting Controversy: Which Domino Will Be Next A Review Of The Canned Lion Hunting Controversy

Hank2211 said:

The second way to look at this is to say that there is something inherently illegitimate about hunting captive bred lions, on the basis that it is really "canned" hunting. In this case, I suggest that not only is there no real evidence to support your argument, but that if you do in fact hold this belief, you need to apply it across the board to all high fenced game hunting in South Africa, Namibia and elsewhere

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To take that this a step further I'd argue that if against CBL because they are "raised to be shot" then you should also be against raised bird shooting and even the raising and releasing of fish to be caught whether it is in a stocked pond or a mountain stream in Colorado.

The only real difference in these examples is that CBL is a much more emotional issue because the lion is "magnificent."

That said, I do understand the argument that we might be better off (for a while at least) in staying away from such an emotional subject as CBL. Or, if we insist, to at least be totally honest about what it is, which is simply a way to make shooting a lion both more sustainable AND affordable.

It's a complex issue to be sure. And one I'm much more in the middle ground than most are.

Any one who hunts deer now has 100s of pictures of deer they are chasing. If you have a big enough property, you can pretty much guess when and where they are going to be. I killed a buck that walked down a trail everyday at 7:30, when I decided to hunt him he was dead by 7:31. There is no fences, there is no bait, I had the pictures and decided it was his time. The reason why I bring this up, is 3/4s of your definition is how hunting is performed today.

The last one, reasonable chance to escape is even somewhat questionable when comparing wild animals to high fence operations in Africa. I think it is reasonable to assume that most North America animals have a home range of 2 square miles (many are even less), that is 1280 sq acres....if a lion is released in an 10000 acre area, that is 15.8 sq miles. The example above of 50000, is 78 square miles...a quick google search on the average home range for an African Lion provides the following, "The male's home range is from 40-55square miles; whereas the female's home range is from 15-30 square miles. The type of diet available in these ranges is most commonly small ungulates. In Africa, one may find around 20,000 lions remaining in the Serengeti. The African lion's home range varies from 7-155 miles" so though not definite it would appear that these large areas could in fact support lions and provide reasonable escape opportunities.

Hank2211 said:

That was the "Cabela's lions" I think, which were released into Mark Haldane's hunting area on Moz. I don't know if they were wild or captive raised, but I think the former. They are doing exceptionally well in any event, it seems.

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hi all

yes there is a project in south africa actually, in a reserve in the waterberg area, where CB lions were taken and released, never fed, ever. and they are now thriving and breeding. they made their first kill within a few days after being released. we were shown a presentation on this project at the PHASA convention last year.

i personally have seen captive bread lions catch prey for themselves within a few days. so the "scientists" that say these animals cannot contribute to the wild populations or re intorducing lions into areas , are seriously misinformed and have been "bullshitted" by greenies once again

i beleive there was a similar project in moz too

and there have been other in SA, that just dont want the attention, that have been very succesful

i will try and find a link or reference to the project in SA where they re introduced these lions

I have no first hand experience with CB lions but anyone who believes a CB lion will not or can not hunt, kill and look after itself after release has no housecat. How many generations of captivity and still the our pet cats are killing to the point of billions of songbirds, rodents and a few pests in NA annually. I want to know what "scientist" says CB Lions wont survive?

MB

It seems the CBL controversy could be cooled if a wildlife management industry standard could be adopted in regards to enclosure size and length of time since being fed by a human.

I am far from any expert, but it seems like 50,000 acres and 1 year should be ethically acceptable to the vast majority of hunters.

so i eventually found the articles i mentioned before
this guy is actually doing his PHD on this lion waterberg project

An article in national geographic, on Lions release in Mozambique.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/2019/05/mozambique-spirit-lion-relocation/

From article:
In order to keep the genetic mix as wide as possible, the team sourced the lions from various reserves in South Africa and kept them all in a boma in KwaZulu Natal’s Mkhuze Game Reserve for three weeks to complete medical tests. Then they were sedated and put in two private planes for the journey to Mozambique.

Tally-Ho Hunting Safaris said:

so i eventually found the articles i mentioned before
this guy is actually doing his PHD on this lion waterberg project

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Thanks very much for posting.

So-called scientists have been saying for years that CBLs have no conservation value and it's on that basis that some countries ban the import of CBLs, and SCI bans the discussion of CBL hunts, etc. People are buying into this nonsense because they have an anti-hunting bias, and after all, scientists are saying it, so it must be true.

This experience and study should finally put the lie to the canard that captive bred lions can't survive in the wild or can't be used to re-populate areas which have lost their own lion populations. Except that it won't, of course.

In August of last year a letter signed by over 128 scientists appeared in Science magazine (the magazine of the American Association for the Advancement of Science - trust me, it's a respected scientific journal). The letter was entitled "Trophy Hunting Bans Imperil Biodiversity" and was based on scientific research. Hunters know that, and anyone else who cares to pay attention does as well, but it's always nice to have science confirm your experience. But. Of course there's a but, because this is hunting.

Not long after, the "scientific community" responded to this letter. Here is an example of "science" in one letter in rebuttal to the letter in support of trophy hunting:



This is, of course, a moral view, not a scientific view. But it was reproduced in a number of attacks, likely in concert, to the same effect. These "scientists" said that trophy hunting was bad because they didn't like it and thought it was wrong. "No potential gains . . .as beneficial to wildlife justify undermining the moral basis . . ." That's right. A scientist has stated, in a reputable science journal, that research is irrelevant and that no amount of good for animals collectively can excuse the killing of an individual animal.

Reputable scientists who work in this field know that the biggest threat to most animals is habitat loss, and this includes, especially, lions, which require large areas. Lion hunting, properly managed, of either wild lions or captive bred lions, preserves lion habitat. It is also self-evident that as long as lions are being bred on farms, they will never be extinct. And they will be bred on farms as long as there is an economic reason to do so. In connection with the Lord Derby Eland, the real scientists behind the IUCN Red List say this:


I can't make a scientist think or act like a scientist. But, at the very least, is it at all possible that on AH we can stop repeating arrant nonsense like captive bred lions cannot survive in the wild? Please?

(I think) The first recorded story, and published in a book, was about Elsa The lioness, a lioness captive bread by game warden Gerogre Adamson, and released successfully in the wild. Year 1966.
Described in a book "Born Free", by Adamson.

Bottom line, there is a history of successful release of captive bread lions in the wild. Ignorance of anti hunters is amazing.

Photo below, a book, from Amazon.

Hank2211 said:

But, at the very least, is it at all possible that on AH we can stop repeating arrant nonsense like captive bred lions cannot survive in the wild? Please?

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Amen to that.