Captive Lions For Sale At Safari Club International

@MarkB, I personally don't disagree with you. I attend DSC every year, but not SCI. I just re-read the SCI statement/position on captive bred lion hunting. I know of quite a few AH members who have hunted and killed South African lions in the past year or two. I may would have done the same under better financial circumstances. And I do not believe that you, me, Washington or anyone else should be telling another country how to regulate their hunting unless they specifically ask for our advice. But the point of my previous post was not to tell you or anyone else to not hunt lions in South Africa, BUT it appears that SCI, and maybe DSC also should eliminate their South African captive bred lion hunting policy as written if they are going to allow their exhibitors to sell these hunts at their conventions. We had a long discussion/argument on this subject on AH a couple of years ago, so I doubt if anything new will be forthcoming.

sierraone said:

@MarkB, I personally don't disagree with you. I attend DSC every year, but not SCI. I just re-read the SCI statement/position on captive bred lion hunting. I know of quite a few AH members who have hunted and killed South African lions in the past year or two. I may would have done the same under better financial circumstances. And I do not believe that you, me, Washington or anyone else should be telling another country how to regulate their hunting unless they specifically ask for our advice. But the point of my previous post was not to tell you or anyone else to not hunt lions in South Africa, BUT it appears that SCI, and maybe DSC also should eliminate their South African captive bred lion hunting policy as written if they are going to allow their exhibitors to sell these hunts at their conventions. We had a long discussion/argument on this subject on AH a couple of years ago, so I doubt if anything new will be forthcoming.

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I agree fully, as SCI (I have no idea about DSC) has made a policy and stance then they should probably try and enforce these rules at their shows. Or at least educate those who display. I fully understand as a business in todays world it would be very hard to turn away a prospective lion client interested in something the show frowns upon. I was not at the show so do not know if advertising was openly displayed or the slimy Antis faked/tricked or coerced this info from outfitters. I think your recommendation of SCI changing their stance on captive bred lion hunting may be the answer. A slippery slope disallowing this method for one species while promoting and allowing all other species hunted under the same circumstances.

I will complete an honest report after this summers hunt. Education can only help us.

MB

I'd appreciate transparency on behalf of the outfitters as the lack thereof gives more fuel for the fire. Just be transparent about CBL and explain that they're still quite challenging hunts despite the cats not being wild-born.

MarkB said:

I say its time hunters put their feeling/attitudes/beliefs aside and unite.

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Sorry I will never support anything I feel is wrong period... This is not hunting therefore I'm not against other hunters

Firstly canned hunting is an illegal practise. This is where animals are hunted in very small enclosures or are drugged before the hunt . These are not legal in any country !!!

It is sad that we still have hunters that seems to confuse this practise with captive bred or Ranch Lions ....and not just lions for that matter as you can get canned hunting on a lot of other species as well. And Yes it has happened before. We need to take note of our approach and words when we defend or promote our Industry.

I have looked at the video a few times. A few operators where obviously tricked into volunteering information. In none of the converstaions could I find any direct marketing of Captive Bred Lions. They all answered questions asked.

It is also interesting that nobody mentions all the other species mentioned like elephant and rhino .
Wild Lions were also mentioned.

SCI and DSC have a policy currently that no Ranch or Captive Bred Lions maybe marketted on the Show floor. This has not changed. The question is did these operators actively market it or merely answer questions on this. I did not see or hear any pricing on Captive Bred anywhere in this clip ..... just wild and one mention of Captive Bred Lion in a book that was hunted in the past.

I guess the Question at hand is if SCI and DSC for that matter have a clause that exibitors sign or must take note of on this policy. This year especially there were quite a few new exibitors at SCI that might be unfamiliar on their policy on this marketing.

I guess we will have to wait on SCI to conduct their investigation in this regard. We urge all hunters to refrain from comments on any subject that you might not have all details on ..... otherwise we become just like the Anti's ..... and thats what make them thrive ......us as hunters destroying each other on a daily basis .....
Sad but true .....

MarkB said:

I may also add that captive breed lions ARE CITES exportable and importable. To all Countries who signed an international agreement and then follow that agreement.

MB

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Not in the USA

Fred Gunner said:

Not in the USA

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He said CITIES, USA is special and decided not to follow it.

To the humane society anything behind a fence is canned. I also think they consider baiting canned hunting too. But they hate all hunting, but they know what words trigger an emotional response.

Fred Gunner said:

Not in the USA

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Sorry Sir but you sound exactly what the antis are looking for to close our sport. Pushing your "feeling" on another member of society who participates in a legal hunting style, method or practice based on something you "feel" is incorrect and will ultimately destroy hunting, this is what our enemies want. Nobody is telling you to do something you "feel" is incorrect but that is no reason for you to condemn, slander, or accuse for those that do. I do not shoot animals at long range, but I do NOT judge those who do. Feelings be dammed.

In my opinion if a Country signs an international agreement then refuses to follow rules and regs for that agreement it demonstrates poor judgement to say the least, with worse words at the other spectrum end. If you cannot import a species that CITES issues an export and import permit for then YOUR country is failing to follow the contract it signed and agreed. Period.

MB

Good point ! I discussed this exact matter with Aurelia Skipwith the newly appointed Director of USFW on Saturday regarding Brown Hyena .... they have the same CITES listing as Baboon, Monkeys, etc but cannot be imported into USA although we probably have 10 000 x more of them in SA than spotted hyena .....

MarkB said:

Pushing your "feeling"

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Not Just my "Feelings as you claim SCI DSC NAPHA have all condemned Captive Bred Lion killing ( it's Killing not hunting)

By your logic I'm required to support anyone who calls himself a "Hunter" no matter what they do or how they do it???

Nope that will never happen live with it or knot I don't care.

Being Canadian, I by no means support our current Gov for many reasons (stance on gun ownership) but must promote them on their stance for remaining true to our signature as a CITES country. At this time we (Canadians) have the freedom to import species that CITES Appendixes state we can. Therefore when hunted and completed, my life size lion will grace my memory room, and I will be proud to see him there for many reasons.

MB

Fred Gunner said:

Not Just my "Feelings as you claim SCI DSC NAPHA have all condemned Captive Bred Lion killing ( it's Killing not hunting)

By your logic I'm required to support anyone who calls himself a "Hunter" no matter what they do or how they do it???

Nope that will never happen live with it or knot I don't care.

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Remember for the few that you state to not support there are many more who do, including the worlds top scientists who sit and report to CITES. I am not asking you to support what you feel is immoral, unethical or feels wrong, I am saying that posted views and comments on others who do is wrong when no laws are broken. I also would never not like something until after I have tried it, how can I make an assessment on something I have never done? I am no moral police and I understand your point, with your "feeling" rule of only hunting non fenced wild born species. That makes me sad that your hunting world is very small. You are missing many great experiences. Is it "Killing" shooting an elk on a fenced ranch, "killing" shooting a whitetail in an impoundment? Even "killing" for those on here who advertise exotics behind a fence? Where do you draw the line? No need to answer just thoughts to ponder. My point is its a slippery slope that only feeds HSUS, Kitty Block and all the antis.

MB

MarkB said:

I also would never not like something until after I have tried it,

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I don't need to shot and animal in a pen before I know it's wrong...me thinks thou dost protest too much

You really want others to accept that your going to shoot a captive bred Lion period...why do you care what I think or anyone else.

I am a paid member Of SCI. I support them for taking a stand against captive bred Lion killing.

This discussion is about the report that SCI has accepted money from South African farms that are selling captive bred Lions, after they have publicly stated that they would not do that.

That is what this thread is about...

And yes as a member I will contact them after they have issued a full report and let them know that I as a member expect them to do thorough research and vetting of all vendors in the future!

Fred Gunner said:

Not in the USA

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Fred Gunner said:

I don't need to shot and animal in a pen before I know it's wrong...me thinks thou dost protest too much

You really want others to accept that your going to shoot a captive bred Lion period...why do you care what I think or anyone else.

I am a paid member Of SCI. I support them for taking a stand against captive bred Lion killing.

This discussion is about the report that SCI has accepted money from South African farms that are selling captive bred Lions, after they have publicly stated that they would not do that.

That is what this thread is about...

And yes as a member I will contact them after they have issued a full report and let them know that I as a member expect them to do thorough research and vetting of all vendors in the future!

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The SCI is worthless. They give into antis all the time. The SCI is concerned with making money off of hunting conventions and selling record book entries.

I encourage all of you hunters and wildlife conservationists to stop supporting the SCI until they actually take a stand and do something to preserve hunter’s rights.

The NRA and Conservation Force do more for hunters than the SCI. When the SCI’s membership dwindles then maybe they will actually do something.

BTW, captive bred lion hunting is not canned hunting. Captive bred lion hunting is actually doing a lot to preserve the species.

I would like to ask an honest question with absolutely know intent of causing hard feelings.
How is stocking a large piece of fenced ground, large enough that the lion in question has plenty of opportunities to alude the hunter and giving him time to adjust so that he has every chance of success any more offensive than stocking a cut wheat or corn field with game birds?

Skinnersblade said:

I would like to ask an honest question with absolutely know intent of causing hard feelings.
How is stocking a large piece of fenced ground, large enough that the lion in question has plenty of opportunities to alude the hunter and giving him time to adjust so that he has every chance of success any more offensive than stocking a cut wheat or corn field with game birds?

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There is no difference. What is the difference between hunting a Lion or Zebra in the same setup? Boycott the SCI!

It seems some in this thread use the terms canned hunt and captive bred interchangeably. This is not accurate. Virtually all ranches in SA have captive bred animals, and none that I am aware of hunt "pens" as alleged.

The consequence of being against captive bred animals, be it a springbok or lion, is that such animals wouldnt otherwise exist. I cant support that position. I would rather see them exist than not!

The "Trump special" sounds intriguing.

Fred Gunner said:

I don't need to shot and animal in a pen before I know it's wrong...me thinks thou dost protest too much

You really want others to accept that your going to shoot a captive bred Lion period...why do you care what I think or anyone else.

I am a paid member Of SCI. I support them for taking a stand against captive bred Lion killing.

This discussion is about the report that SCI has accepted money from South African farms that are selling captive bred Lions, after they have publicly stated that they would not do that.

That is what this thread is about...

And yes as a member I will contact them after they have issued a full report and let them know that I as a member expect them to do thorough research and vetting of all vendors in the future!

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It has become clear that you will never broaden your opinion. Demonstrated in your post above, "pen" please use real factual words, you sound like the person this thread was about. Did you even try and educate yourself by reading the material provided? Have you followed CITES? As for my protests, the main reason I protest is due to ignorance in words, miss truths and plain BS being spread around that ultimately destroys what I am so passionate about. Even more so when it comes from members within our community. It bothers me not that you would not participate in this sort of hunt, the fact you post and further proliferate the lies, mistruths does.

I have also been a member of SCI and other associations for a very long time. Have you never questioned WHY SCI has a whole category for nearly all species called "estate"? Maybe look that up. Why can you hunt and shoot a 550" elk in a non regulated "pen" and enter it into the SCI record book? But a captive bred lion that must follow strict rules cannot? When you call SCI after the research to complain about "canned" hunts will you request that they follow this no "canned" or real word estate hunts for all species. That must be what you believe, its not only lions. Please post the reply.

Feelings are individual and specific. As long as any hunt is legal I have NO moral obligation or right to force my feelings, beliefs or morals on someone else. Some safaris I have done were behind fences, I have accepted this, I accept and understand my upcoming lion hunt, I don't expect you to accept it, that's OK, I would like you to stop spreading BS, lies and incorrect words that may negatively stop others from participating. Your feelings may some day exclude my grandchildren from doing what I love. Because even hunters on here along with the antis do not understand the difference between captive bred, canned or estate.

MB