7x64 Brenneke - Opinions

sgt_zim said:

Looks like an interesting cartridge, but I don't see a whole lot of reloading data on it.

Of the manuals I have, only Norma and Hornady show anything.

Until I found out MRC is shuttering operations, I was thinking a pair of 7x57 (one left, one right; for my daughter and myself). With them going by the wayside, looks like my only real option, without going custom, is a Sako 85 in 7x64. I know. 1st world problems.

I'd do 280 Rem, but in LH, that's a custom rifle. Not a huge issue, but I'd end up spending as much money on a LH 280 as I would on the Sako 85 in 7x64.

Is load data for 7x64 and 7x65R interchangeable?

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Load data is the same as for the std .280 Rem. Case capacity is almost identical. Approach loading the same way. 7x65R is also interchangeable. Be aware that the Sako uses a slower twist in 7mm, believe its 10, and that's a tad slow for heavy bullets. I had thought about the Sako as well but the twist turned me off.

the 280 has slightly greater case capacity than the 7x64, so be careful up near the red line.
the 7x65r is loaded to lower pressures for break open guns, so factory ammo, as well as sensible handloads, are a little less punchy.
bruce.

meant to add,
both cip and saami websites show max pressures for cartridges.
sometimes it takes a bit of time and effort to look up, but is interesting and worthwhile.
bruce.

bruce moulds said:

the 280 has slightly greater case capacity than the 7x64, so be careful up near the red line.
the 7x65r is loaded to lower pressures for break open guns, so factory ammo, as well as sensible handloads, are a little less punchy.
bruce.

Click to expand...

Correct, just over 2 grs of water difference capacity.

fastrig,

i saw one in use the last time in SA. i was very impressed. it dropped to the shot a impala, gemsbok, and blue wildebeest. one and done! (no, i was not the shooter)

i was so impressed, i had to suppress the urge to go get one as soon as i got back! i would say its a very fine cartridge. good luck with it.

7 x 64 is a very good caliber but I prefer 7 x 57 Mauser.

I know bruce will object to these numbers (thoroughly discussed in a different recent thread) because they're published by an ammunition manufacturing company for factory ammunition offerings, but recent RUAG group published factory ammunition load muzzle velocities vary significantly between some .280 Remington and 7X64mm Brenneke ammunition with certain projectiles.

The 2019 Norma catalog has a published a muzzle velocity of 890 m/s = 2910 fps for the 7X74mm Brenneke ammo loaded with the 160 grain Tipstrike projectile.

The same 2019 Norma catalog has a published muzzle velocity of 850 m/s = 2789 fps.

It appears Norma is applying a new powder blend to the 7X64mm Tipstrike ammo that Norma thus far isn't choosing to use in the .280 Remington Tipstrike factory ammo based on these figures.

That same 2019 Norma catalog has a published muzzle velocity of 850 m/s = 2789 fps for .280 Remington factory ammo loaded with the 156 grain Oryx projectile.

That same Norma 2019 catalog has a published muzzle velocity of 850 m/s = 2789 fps for 7X64mm Brenneke factory ammo loaded with the 156 grain Norma Oryx projectile.

The Geco 2019 catalog has a published muzzle velocity of 885 m/s = 2904 fps for the 7X64mm Brenneke factory ammo loaded with the 155 grain Express projectile.

Geco does not offer .280 Remington factory ammo loaded with the 155 grain Express projectile to compare, but this does provide some level of cross-check for the 890 m/s published muzzle velocity of the Norma 7X64mm Brenneke factory ammo loaded with the 160 grain Tipstrike projectile.

That same 2019 Geco catalog has a published muzzle velocity of 820 m/s = 2690 fps for factory .280 Remington factory ammo loaded with the 155 grain Softpoint projectile, and is the only .280 Remington factory ammo offered by Geco.

That same 2019 Geco catalog has a published muzzle velocity of 850 m/s = 2789 fps for 7X64mm Brenneke ammunition loaded with the 165 grain Softpoint projectile.

This inicates that for whatever reason, Geco apparently doesn't use the same load for the same (older) projectile the 165 grain Softpoint in both 7X64mm Brenneke and .280 Remington, unlike Norma data indicating the same load is used in both 7X64mm Brenneke and .280 Remington using the same (older) 156 grain Oryx projectile.

From a business perspective, it would make sense from a manufacturing simplification standpoint to have same muzzle velocities (same loads) in 7X64mm Brenneke and .280 Remington being so similar in case capacity. But with more recently introduced higher BC projectilrs in similar weight range, there's definitely something extra applied to reach those higher published muzzle velocity figures in 7X64mm Brenneke.

But maybe all those published figures are wrong, or all typos, or who knows what can be argued. There's a particularly eyebrow raising value of 957 m/s published muzzle velocity for Norma .280 Remington factory ammo loaded with the 170 grain Plastic Point projectile. Comparison figures are 840 m/s and 900 m/s for Norma factory ammo loaded with the 170 grain Plastic Point projectile in 7X64mm Brenneke and 7mm Remington Magnum Norma factory ammo, all listed in that same 2019 Norma catalog.

bruce moulds said:

the 280 has slightly greater case capacity than the 7x64, so be careful up near the red line.
the 7x65r is loaded to lower pressures for break open guns, so factory ammo, as well as sensible handloads, are a little less punchy.
bruce.

Click to expand...

Forget the 2 grains bigger case. Both the 7x65R and the 7x64 in correct euro spec have a very long, tapered throat well suited to long heavy bullets. 280 data is USUALLY very mild in the 7x64 and 7x65R

If the 7x65R is in a jager blocked action, it will handle the same pressure as 7x64 in a bolt. The book data that I have seen for these two is useless.

Either calibre, with heavy bullets will eat a 280 for performance. The only disadvantage could be availability of brass and ammo in some countries, although it should be noted that both Lapua and Norma make brass for both the 7x64 and 7x65R.

To anyone looking to load for either, please don't be gung ho about my observations and follow usual practices. You will be surprised at where a sensible work up takes you.

I have also found .280 loads in my 7x64 is rather mild.

Fastrig said:

Have an opportunity to pick up a 7x64 Brenneke barrel for a Merkel rifle at a very reasonable price. Been reading a bit about the round and it sounds like a nice caliber. Would like to hear what you all that have this caliber think about it and how you are using it. Thanks!

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my 9 year old has one. He used it for oryx and deer so far. 17lbs of recoil? Perfect gun.

Fastrig said:

Thanks guys for all the input. I bought the rifle with the 300 win mag barrel/mag bolt head and am going to pick up the 9.3x62 barrel/stand bolt head. Was going to get the 308 win barrel (same bolt head as the 9.3) for white tail, hogs, etc. because I'm so familiar with the cartridge. The dealer is clearing out other barrels including ones in 30-06 and 7x64 at pretty steep discounts. The 7x64 has the heaviest discount, which got me to looking at it, plus it looked interesting. 308, 30-06, 7x64 are kind of overlapping calibers really but if you were going to pair one with the 9.3 Mauser, which would you choose? Go all German with the 7x64 and 9.3x62 in the Merkel

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I have had a 7x64 and 9.3x62 as my longest serving pairing of rifles. Walk around the bushes and stop something before it runs: 9.3x62 with a red dot. Want to reach out a way with a magnified scope: 7x64. Same bolt head too.

7x64 is great.

Not sure if you want the heavier bullets of a .30-'06 SPR vs the fast and flat shooting of a 270W? Get the best of both with a 7x64

sgt_zim said:

Looks like an interesting cartridge, but I don't see a whole lot of reloading data on it.

Of the manuals I have, only Norma and Hornady show anything.

Until I found out MRC is shuttering operations, I was thinking a pair of 7x57 (one left, one right; for my daughter and myself). With them going by the wayside, looks like my only real option, without going custom, is a Sako 85 in 7x64. I know. 1st world problems.

I'd do 280 Rem, but in LH, that's a custom rifle. Not a huge issue, but I'd end up spending as much money on a LH 280 as I would on the Sako 85 in 7x64.

Is load data for 7x64 and 7x65R interchangeable?

Click to expand...

7x64 to 7x65r Short answer is yes, but of course at your own risk. Have a look at Vihtavouri for a good comparison.

Quite a lot of European hand loaders who use US powders use 280Rem data as a start point as others have stated.

7x57Joe said:

I have also found .280 loads in my 7x64 is rather mild.

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That is said by quite a lot of people. I think some 280 Rem data is designed for older semi-auto rifles so milder than what we might load to in a bolt action.

Scrummy

Scrumbag said:

7x64 to 7x65r Short answer is yes, but of course at your own risk. Have a look at Vihtavouri for a good comparison.

Quite a lot of European hand loaders who use US powders use 280Rem data as a start point as others have stated.

Click to expand...

Long answer, the 7x64 and 7x65r shouldn't use the same data. The 7x65r was built to mimic the ORIGINAL ballistics of the 7x64. They 7x65r was used in double rifles and break-action drillings/combo guns. Pressure and regulation of barrels neuter the 7x65r to original specs. The 7x64 has subsequently been significantly improved and is a formidable magazine rifle caliber.

Why own a 7x64 instead of a 280 Rem or 280AI?

Answers:

1.) 7x64 is ubiquitous in Europe and South Africa. If you lose your ammo on a hunt, you might find 7x64 but you will not find .280 Rem.

2.) The 7x64 most often comes in very high quality custom guns. Its oddity in the USA means the guns sell way under value. For example, my son's 7x64 custom mauser easily would cost $4500-$5500 to be built new. We paid $850 and it appeared new and unfired. Same for Mannlichers, Steyrs, and other custom mausers. The .280 Rem is pretty uncommon to find in fine firearms by comparison so you're regulated to plastic/stainless modern guns most frequently. (*rare exceptions)

Addendum: and why not the .280AI since it now has factory ammo? Answer: SAAMI specs for the factory ammo of .280AI is incompatible with the specs for the original .280AI. So if you have a custom .280AI, you can't shoot factory .280AI ammo in it! Ridiculous!

Rookhawk, you speak a lot of sense my friend.

Funnily enough, the place I have seen most 280 Rems is in France. Usually in beat up old Remington semi-autos.

Scrummy

sestoppelman said:

Load data is the same as for the std .280 Rem. Case capacity is almost identical. Approach loading the same way. 7x65R is also interchangeable. Be aware that the Sako uses a slower twist in 7mm, believe its 10, and that's a tad slow for heavy bullets. I had thought about the Sako as well but the twist turned me off.

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As much as I think 175 gr .284 bullets are the bees knees in small bore, I'd think a 160 gr AF or NP at 2700 fps would be be pretty effective. A 10 twist should be plenty for that length bullet.

sgt_zim said:

As much as I think 175 gr .284 bullets are the bees knees in small bore, I'd think a 160 gr AF or NP at 2700 fps would be be pretty effective. A 10 twist should be plenty for that length bullet.

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It most likely would be adequate. I just prefer a faster twist when possible, it gives one more options generally.

Yeah, not sure I understand why Sako, of all companies, would buck industry standard of 1:9-ish in this caliber.

In either the .280 Rem or 7x64, one can get to 2900fps with a 160 gr bullet in a 24" barrel within safe pressure limits. I have done so in both without difficulty, and both are quite accurate depending on the individual rifle and shooter. This old rough looking Zastava I just got is proving to be a very good shooter. the one on top is 7x64, below is 8x57.

sestoppelman said:

In either the .280 Rem or 7x64, one can get to 2900fps with a 160 gr bullet in a 24" barrel within safe pressure limits. I have done so in both without difficulty, and both are quite accurate depending on the individual rifle and shooter. This old rough looking Zastava I just got is proving to be a very good shooter.View attachment 328979 the one on top is 7x64, below is 8x57.

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Assuming I go the Sako route, one of these will be for my daughter - she's pretty new to shooting, but she shoots my 6.5x55 REALLY well. She graduates LSU law in May, I figure a 7x64 Sako and a stag hunt to NZ next March for their roar would make a pretty nice gift. She's about 5'6" and maybe 130#, so I am figuring on loading her with 160s that won't be too punishing.