Cost for a 28 day full bag hunt in Tanzania

Hogpatrol said:

I wonder if they've ever studied the demographics of African hunters. Seems to me they'd want to maximize the income from hunting before the boomers stopped their African hunts. Then again, maybe the oil sheiks and other foreigners will keep them in business.

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You are now getting far too technical........ Forget logic....

And remember that all mzungus are rich and have lots of money......

spike.t said:

You are talking the difference between operating on a game Ranch in countries with pretty good infrastructure... compared to very large wild government concessions in countries where the infrastructure is not as good ...Another distances are great...this includes getting fuel and supplies etc in......So don't go trying to compare ....and as for the model of conservation.... As I said you are comparing two totally different types of operations..... Maybe one day when unfortunately the big wild concessions are no more due to population explosion... then I suppose the game ranching scenario you so love as its cheap will possibly become the norm ....if the legislation is in place to allow it....but I hope the big wild concessions are around for as long as possible.... And I also hope there keep on being people who can afford to hunt these places.....

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That is true. The differences explained well.
Large concession blocks, remote areas, logistics, etc.
But why not having Namibia model, in other countries? There is game ranching, and there is wilderness of Caprivi strip, and pricing accordingly?

Of course, provided legal frame to allow such types of operations

Another thing to consider, which model of conservation is more succesfull? Game ranching, or maintaining wilderness areas? Number of white rhinos in Namibia and RSA, speak well plus few other species.

In overall all human wildlife conflict, uncontrolled encroachment, poaching, etc ... all over the continent, my impression is that game ranching is model for the future.

I understand that in modern World there is no free lunch. Everything costs, economy is driving machine in all industries, but I am also not sure,that 100k full bag safari, affordable to maybe 1% or less of declining international hunters population is the only way, as applied.

Simply put, i dont see it as long term self sustainable. Especially in situatiation where number of hunters is in decline, hunting elite in decline as well... in western countries where elite hunters are coming from (more and more celebrities, politicians are against hunting, etc).

Lets compare it to car industry, rolls rolls is nice, but middle class affordable cars, that make numbers, sales, profitabilty, end employment rates makes the difference. Like Ford philosophy.

It is not that I "love so much" game farming, but to me it made African hunting affordable, to me and to 90% of other visiting hunters.

And when we speak of foregin cash income, there was a table somwhere on this forum, where is very much visible the differences of annual revenue from hunting industry per country in subsaharan africa, in reality comparing economic results of two different approaches. So my educated guess is game ranching has more succes in conservation of the species, but also in annual revenues.

mark-hunter said:

That is true. The differences explained well.
Large concession blocks, remote areas, logistics, etc.
But why not having Namibia model, in other countries? There is game ranching, and there is wilderness of Caprivi strip, and pricing accordingly?

Of course, provided legal frame to allow such types of operations

Another thing to consider, which model of conservation is more succesfull? Game ranching, or maintaining wilderness areas? Number of white rhinos in Namibia and RSA, speak well plus few other species.

In overall all human wildlife conflict, uncontrolled encroachment, poaching, etc ... all over the continent, my impression is that game ranching is model for the future.

I understand that in modern World there is no free lunch. Everything costs, economy is driving machine in all industries, but I am also not sure,that 100k full bag safari, affordable to maybe 1% or less of declining international hunters population is the only way, as applied.

Simply put, i dont see it as long term self sustainable. Especially in situatiation where number of hunters is in decline, hunting elite in decline as well... in western countries where elite hunters are coming from (more and more celebrities, politicians are against hunting, etc).

Lets compare it to car industry, rolls rolls is nice, but middle class affordable cars, that make numbers, sales, profitabilty, end employment rates makes the difference. Like Ford philosophy.

It is not that I "love so much" game farming, but to me it made African hunting affordable, to me and to 90% of other visiting hunters.

And when we speak of foregin cash income, there was a table somwhere on this forum, where is very much visible the differences of annual revenue from hunting industry per country in subsaharan africa, in reality comparing economic results of two different approaches. So my educated guess is game ranching has more succes in conservation of the species, but also in annual revenues.

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Yes I do know what you are talking about.... But you don't seem to get what I was saying...... All I can say is long may the big wild hunting areas be open as when they are gone as they will in the not so distant future then Africa and it's hunting will not be the same...... And yeah I really don't understand how you could even wish those areas be turned into game ranches under the conservation model you quote.....maybe you have never been.....and also countries like Namibia and SA are very different in how the land is owned or divided up....

The half of the hunting blocks in Tanz. is not leased out...
because the prices are crazy.
The operators have four years time to get the investments back,how should that work ?
Just the residence permit for a PH, that is not Tanzanian costs over 7000.- USD p.a.
Let them charge three times as much, whoever accepts this will not have to work for their money anyway.

Foxi said:

The half of the hunting blocks in Tanz. is not leased out...
because the prices are crazy.
The operators have four years time to get the investments back,how should that work ?
Just the residence permit for a PH, that is not Tanzanian costs over 7000.- USD p.a.
Let them charge three times as much, whoever accepts this will not have to work for their money anyway.

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No I call bullshit! I worked damned hard since I was a kid. Started keeping financial records on my business at age 13. And at 56 I'm still self employed. Gave up way to much over the years to get where I am now financially. So I'll damned well spend it how I want now. I built my business from nothing taking a lot of big risks the normal guy would never take. Yes there are the privileged few who get things handed to them. But in my World that is not the norm. Everyone I know doing or contemplating these type hunts has damned well worked hard AND smart, and scrimped and saved for it!

And yes I just put a deposit down on a Tanzania hunt for next year. Although only 21 days.

I guess I'll gain first hand experience but from what I've seen on my Mozambique and Zimbabwe hunts, they are great deals for the 10 to 14 day hunts targeting one or two big ticket animals such as elephant in Zim, buffalo and leopard, even croc and hippo in both. But to have on the menu everything that is available in Tanzania, Tanzania can be very competitive.

But few go on true full bag hunts in countries other than Tanzania so you are comparing hazelnuts to oranges.

And South Africa no longer has the ability to even compare, if it ever did. And from my research, Namibia is much higher priced.

Foxi said:

Let them charge three times as much, whoever accepts this will not have to work for their money anyway

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Bob is right. This is utter and total bullshit both for the reasons that Bob stated and for the good of the areas and the animals.

Sounds more like emotional jealousy than anything that has actually been thought out with facts and consideration.

Royal27 said:

Bob is right. This is utter and total bullshit both for the reasons that Bob stated and for the good of the areas and the animals.

Sounds more like emotional jealousy than anything that has actually been thought out with facts and consideration.

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an immature answer ,because there is no reason for Tanzania to demand such high costs as the greed for dollars and these prizes must be passed on to the hunter.
Nothing else.
Whoever wants to meet this need should do so.
And if you look at the success rate on Elefant in Selous then everybody who knows about it knows that it is just a rip-off.
I am not jealous.
Nearby you wouldn't believe it, others work too.

Foxi said:

an immature answer ,because there is no reason for Tanzania to demand such high costs as the greed for dollars.

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You use an ad hominem argument instead of actual fact, again.

You're the one who suggested a 3x increase in price and stated that it didn't matter since those people didn't work for their money anyway, not I.

Have a nice day Foxi!

@ActionBob and I had a conversation 1-2 years ago about hunting the wide open areas. He explained to me why they were expensive as such and I for the most part understood. I already knew they were too expensive for me but still never held it against others hunting those areas that could afford it. For me it's pretty much the same reasoning as to why I don't have a few Rigbys and a Westley in my safe along with my Winchesters and Rugers. That's just the way it is. And I completely understand that!

ActionBob said:

I guess I'll gain first hand experience but from what I've seen on my Mozambique and Zimbabwe hunts, they are great deals for the 10 to 14 day hunts targeting one or two big ticket animals such as elephant in Zim, buffalo and leopard, even croc and hippo in both. But to have on the menu everything that is available in Tanzania, Tanzania can be very competitive.

But few go on true full bag hunts in countries other than Tanzania so you are comparing hazelnuts to oranges.

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Yup Tanzania is the nearest you can get to an old style east African safari....ele..lion ..leopard.. 3 or 4 buff depending on amount of days...hippo ..croc then all the plains game of which some species you can take 2....So yeah if you can afford it go and do it before it's too late to experience such a great adventure.....

spike.t said:

And yeah I really don't understand how you could even wish those areas be turned into game ranches under the conservation model you quote.....maybe you have never been.....and also countries like Namibia and SA are very different in how the land is owned or divided up....

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I did not mean, as you have put it. I am saying , it should be made more affordable. I am not saying to make entire Tanzania to farm land. I am saying give game ranching a chance, to smaller percetage of area. Make affordable hunts for plains game, at least. Thats all.

In opposite, as the things are now, Tanzania will remaing unaffordable to 90% of international hunters, or more. Thats fact. Is that good? You tell me. Personally, I am not thrilled, although I would love to hunt grants, thomson gazzele, lesser kudu, gerenuk, but at the moment due to pricing, I would rather be looking to other more affordable options, other species of plains game. (I am saying this from my perspective, but many of middle class hunters will look in same manner, which is a fact)

How the land is owned and divided, when compared to other countries, yes there are differences, of course. But is it good enough? Does it justify the prices? Is it good enough when compared to more succesfull countries in conservation? Anybody can say for him self.

ActionBob said:

...

But few go on true full bag hunts in countries other than Tanzania so you are comparing hazelnuts to oranges.

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That is true and is due to the price for many of us. You go once and spend all your money or you go more often with only one or just a few trophies by each hunting. Anyone who can afford an full bag safari more often should do it , nobody is jealous.

Nevertheless there are in Tanzania , for example in the mountains west of Arusha , areas with nothing more for hunting except buffalos , but the prices are also extremely high. It doesn't seem always to be due to the amount of game in the offer.

mark-hunter said:

Does it go with exclamation mark, as a surpise? Or is it just stated as fact?

I went that road... I mean, when I started reasearching for my first safari, I did not know where to look, or is there any difference from country to country.
Its all Africa, or subsaharan Africa, right?
Tanzania. Mozambique, South Africa,, Namibia... all the same, right?
Wrong!
As I have soon learnt.

I checked the offers from all safari countries, I was dissapointed and surprised, quite to high prices of some countries.

Anyway, 118k, for full bag safari, is not surprise, similar offers you will find in Zimbabwe, and in Mozambique.
Plains game package in Moz, or Tanz, will go at least 4 times higher then comparable package in RSA, or NAM

Budget safaris, are only in Namibia and South Africa. I wish, that other countries follow that model of conservation, but at the moment it is just my wishfull thinking.

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The South African “model” being adopted everywhere will mean that wilderness hunting has come to an end in Africa. I won’t live to see that day, but my children unfortunately likely will. That will be a sad day. Outfitter costs maintaining a wilderness camp in the Zambezi Delta or the Caprivi or different than maintaining a lodge behind a fence in South Africa. So is the hunting experience. Is it worth a premium to hunt a smaller wild sable in Mozambique rather than shooting a monster behind a fence in South Africa? For some, yes. I pray enough hunters will continue to value that wilderness experience in order to maintain the business case of those wilderness outfitters. When they vanish, so will that remaining truly wild game.

None of that is meant to demean those who through choice or necessity hunt the South African game farm environment. I was in the Limpopo a year ago, and will likely never hunt Tanzania. But thank goodness others can and hopefully will support those wilderness opportunities.

Nevertheless does not explain why Tanzania is significantly more expensive than the rest.

The landscape in the north and west is certainly very beautiful and there are also a variety of game in open areas. Whether all of this justifies the prices or if there is something else behind it , no matter what you want to call it , only the outfitters know that , and they won't tell us.

A wise-man would never step into a spat between others. I understand where this post puts me.

I really appreciate @Foxi 's knowledge and love in many of AH's vintage threads and all things pertaining to Deutsch Ostafrika where his knowledge is incredible.

Foxi said:

The half of the hunting blocks in Tanz. is not leased out...
because the prices are crazy.
The operators have four years time to get the investments back,how should that work ?
Just the residence permit for a PH, that is not Tanzanian costs over 7000.- USD p.a.
Let them charge three times as much, whoever accepts this will not have to work for their money anyway.

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Tanzania holds a special place in my heart. Yet, over the years here on AH, I have been one of her harshest critics. Tanzania has certainly shot herself in the foot a number of times as it relates to wildlife and hunting.

Many people would agree with most of the above post. The last sentence however can be insulting to many Americans.

Foxi said:

Let them charge three times as much, whoever accepts this will not have to work for their money anyway.

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Stating that an individual who hunts Tanzania "will not have to work for their money anyway", is a verbal offense to most any individual who has worked 80-100 hours per week, week after week, month after month, year after year, decade after decade for over 40 years, and has sacrificed much to be in a financial position that few can even imagine, and fewer still will ever obtain.

One hundred and fifty years ago, @ActionBob could easily be the subject of a Horatio Alger story. To imply that he didn't work for that money or didn't earn it (intentional or not) is an insult in much of America. I don't know how it is seen in Europe where there are generations of aristocracy with inherited wealth. Perhaps there is something lost in translation or a culture difference.

I don't know details of the hunts that were posted above that I have copied below, but when you start adding all the animals together into one hunt and divide it by the number of animals, whether dg or pg or both, Tanzania isn't near as bad a deal as many perceive it to be. (ie: Two buff over ten days for $25,000-$28,000 isn't outrageous when your into your hunt at 14k/buff. This is not below. This was at DSC) Yes, I realize that 28k is expensive and real money for most of us!




Tanzania is a wonderful place to hunt. If it is within your means, it is certainly something you should consider and look into. The future of Tanzania's wildlife is dependent on us, even though the government throws up obstacles periodically.

All the best and happy hunting to all.


Yes, I had the right to remain silent, but not the ability!

kurpfalzjäger said:

Nevertheless does not explain why Tanzania is significantly more expensive than the rest.

The landscape in the north and west is certainly very beautiful and there are also a variety of game in open areas. Whether all of this justifies the prices or if there is something else behind it , no matter what you want to call it , only the outfitters know that , and they won't tell us.

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1. Incremental cost to the outfitter for doing business in a wild area
2. Higher cost of the license and government fees than most areas
3. What the market will bear

That pretty much explains it. They charge more because they both have to, and can. It's supply and demand, sometimes coupled with the Government not understanding how supply and demand work, or pushing it too far, just like many other businesses do.

Tanzania is more expensive, no doubt. And it is up to each one of us to decide if it's worth it as you state. what's behind it I think though is immaterial. I've dreamed of hunting East Africa since I was a small boy (see link below). This means for me it's Tanzania or nothing. There are no other options. So.... Would I personally give up a couple of other African hunts in order to experience East Africa? You bet ya!

And by the way, anyone know what the cost is for a 98 day Safari???

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/bill-mcmillan-98-day-1947-safari.39684/

...Perhaps there is something lost in translation or a culture difference.

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@Wheels

That is the point.

In addition , a relative aggressive discussion was held about one year ago at a hunting forum in Germany on the same subject and in particular on an outfitter austrian origin west of Arusha. Europeans also have to work for their money , but people who have enough money to hunt amongst other things in Tanzania for example, are rarely present on a forum in Europe. That is why the discussions are often conducted very differently and the social difference becomes clearer.

kurpfalzjäger said:

Nevertheless does not explain why Tanzania is significantly more expensive than the rest.
.

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Yes Tanzania is expensive. In reality, is it really more expensive than Uganda, Luangwa Valley, Caprivi Strip, Niassa, Save Valley, Bubye Valley, etc.

Tanzania is a big area with a diverse selection of game and remote locations. Tanzania also has a number of different outfitters working at different price points. Lumping them all into the same basket might be a disservice to yourself. ie: A friend spent over 175k this year for three buff and a leopard, plus apx 20 plains game to serve as bait. He didn't take his lion or elephant and turned down both since he wanted larger than he had shot in the past. Yes, that is an expensive hunt. Another friend was quoted three buff and a leopard all in for under 40k at DSC. This seems very fair if you get those four animals for under 10k each. Basically the same hunts for over a 100k difference.

If you hunt one buff and the local pg, pricing in Tanzania is probably comparable to some of the areas I mentioned in my first sentence. When you start adding double buff and/or leopard etc. it starts getting even better.

Everyone talks about charter costs in Tanzania which are stupidly high, but plan your safari around destination airports. Ten years ago I had to get a person to drive five hundred miles to pick me up in Dar and take me to the Southern Highlands. They would then have to return me when I went home. Four trips costs total around 2k. Now there is air service throughout much of Tanzania. Now I can fly into Mbeya for $200-300. (Royal mentioned this earlier) Look to hunt with outfitters that will pick you up and drive you from Mbeya, Iringa, Arusha, Mwanza, etc. Bi-pass those costly charters.

Keep your eyes open and talk to the Tanzania outfitters at the shows. You just might find a deal you can't live without!

Happy hunting.