A Genuine Question : Why Is Hornady So Hated?

Major Khan · Jan 21, 2020

Rum Runner said:
With dangerous game, the choice of the bullet is so critical, and the cost difference is not even worth mentioning, why would anyone compromise with an inferior bullet? On my recent trip, the Swift A-Frame performed spectacularly, including a one shot kill after the bullet passed through a small tree.

Ah , the development of modern soft point bullets . During our time , the classic Winchester Silvertip or Remington Core Lokt soft point bullets could never be expected to deliver this type of performance.

Major Khan · Jan 21, 2020

Dr Ray said:
I use Hornady brass in my Remington 416. Years ago I used the 110 hollow nose Hornady in a 270 for goat hunting. Goats are hardly considered to be dangerous. The 110 grain Bullets worked very well I might add.
I have also used the 87 grain Hornady Bullets in my 243 with excellent results.
However, after reviewing AH posts over a while, I won’t risk using Hornady in the big calibers.

Neither will l , Doctor ! My good friend , compatriot and fellow forum member , @Captain Nwz recently purchased a .458 Winchester magnum calibre Model 70 bolt rifle . 2 years later , he has plans to hunt a tuskless cow elephant in South Africa . He was planning to use Hornady DGS 500 grain metal covered bullets for the job. However , after reading all these posts , l do think that he will reconsider his choice of ammunition.

Major Khan · Jan 21, 2020

Bob Nelson 35Whelan said:
Ponton
I haven't used any hornaday DG loads but I do use their SST on Australian game up to the size of Sambar deer and find it an extremely effective projectile for the money. In my 22k hornet and 222 Remington I use their VMax projectiles because of the superb accuracy I get from them and the good terminal performance. A 55grain VMAX in the ear of a fallow deer brings home the venison. I have also found their interbond to be almost on par with nosler accubonds, it's just that I get better accuracy with accubonds and woodleigh in my Whelan ( hornaday don't make interbond in 35 cal) and SST does what I need without the added expense of a bonded projectiles.
That just my humble opinion.
I remember reading of Joyce Hornaday in a safari camp listening to hunters complain about the 500gn FMJ being to soft and bending on large DG. He didn't disclose who he was and went on to provide a tougher bullet for hunters needs.
Cheers friend Ponton
Bob

That must have been an awkward situation , Bob ! Imagine being the owner of a company and discreetly sitting among a group of people complaining about your product. I imagine that the 500 grain solid metal covered bullet was for the .458 Winchester magnum calibre or .470 Nitro Express calibre.

Major Khan · Jan 21, 2020

Luvthunt said:
The one conclusion Is—- we can say the sSwift AFrame is an expanding bullet that nobody has trashed.
An my usage ot Aframes in 300 Wby (200 gr) 375 HH (300) and 458 (500 gr) has been without any negative comments to make.
Van der Walt makes the only comment in his great book and that was that some people comment on the way the AFrame base below the part. expands slightly at times after impact is the only comment of a non positive nature I have heard/read.
Sorry for the non Hornady thought.

No apology necessary , Luvhunt. Any discussion is welcome here.

Major Khan · Jan 21, 2020

Standard Velocity said:
The only Hornady complaint that appears widespread and documented is the old DGX fragmenting. I am curious about the claims of DGS failure. If they fragment after tumbling then there must be better options.

Implications that they are somehow making cartridges to only be accurate in Ruger rifles are amusing. While surely their 375 Ruger and 416 Ruger cartridges are optimized for a Ruger chamber, I find it unlikely that they are somehow in cahoots to de-accurize their cartridges for the rest of the industry.

This reminds me of a discussion with my neighbor who misses quite a few deer. He replaces his rifle every couple of years with progressively more powerful cartridges. He let me in on a secret “they” won’t tell you. Apparently you can’t use Winchester ammunition in a Remington rifle. “It’ll never shoot right.” You also cannot zero your rifle 1” high at 100 yards “cause you’ll miss the entire deer.”

Regarding accuracy issues specific to Hornady, I’ve had some loadings in some cartridges with terrible accuracy and some that were quite good. Without using a chronograph and calipers I would hesitate to blame the manufacturer. Factory loaded “Match” ammo is funny to me. Tighter tolerances and greater consistency is a good thing but it’s hard for any manufacturer to have dialed in their load for every chamber and throat variation in a particular cartridge.

The hunting community has a really long memory and the suspicious nature of grumpy grandfather eyeing teenagers loitering at the gas station. If an ammo company makes a mistake it is best to strike a match, rebuild in a different state, change the phone number and get plastic surgery.

View attachment 325891

Even l found it very strange why Hornady would make their ammunition optimized for only 1 manufacturer , Standard Velocity. However , the photographs of the DGS solid metal covered bullets getting deformed upon being used of relatively soft skinned game , such as giraffes or African lions are quite disconcerting.

Major Khan · Jan 21, 2020

Bonk said:
I'm not a Hornady fanboy nor a detractor. I've used their ammo in everything from 9mm to 458Win. IMO their Critical Duty handgun ammo is excellent stuff and I use it in my CCW. I'm also a big fan of their American Whitetail rifle ammo. I've used it with outstanding results in 30-06 and 25-06. The 25-06 was spectacularly accurate in my bone stock Ruger Hawkeye (sub .5 MOA all day everyday).

I've never hunted DG so I can't comment on how effective their DG bullets are on live game but I've shot a few of boxes of their DG ammo in my M70 458Win and it's devastating on rocks and tree stumps.

When I bought my CZ550 375H&H a few years ago I also bought a couple of boxes of Hornady to go with it. The first 3 rounds through the gun fired just fine but when I picked up the brass all three cases were split. Was it a gun problem or an ammo problem? I didn't have any other ammo at that time but a few days later I bought some Remington and cautiously shot 3 rounds and those cases were just fine. OK, seems like an ammo problem so I contacted Hornady and explained what was going on. I gave them the lot # and they immediately told me "Yep, we know about that problem." They told me to send them the ammo and they would replace it. I did and they did but it took a while (2-3 months IIRC). The replacement ammo shot just fine and there wasn't any more split brass.

Now in fairness the ammo in question was a few years old and had been sitting on the shelf at the gun store. Not a lot of folks around here buy 375H&H. Hornady may have tried to recall the ammo but for some reason these couple of boxes never made it back to the factory. I did go back to the gun store to let them know so they wouldn't sell any more of it. They said they would contact Hornady to replace their stock.

Bottom line for me is any manufacturing company of any product can have a lemon every now and then. I don't hold one bad batch of 375H&H against them. OTOH, I agree with the comments about Hornady Leverevolution 45-70 brass being too short. THAT little detail would have been good to know before I bought 5 boxes intending to use the brass for reloading.

It is very fair minded of you not to hold anything against the company for 1 bad batch of cartridges , Bonk. However , the odds of SO MANY of our forum members suffering some sort of problem with Hornady DGX and DGS ammunition is quite unnerving.

Goose Cracker · Jan 21, 2020

I'll also say that I've had good experiences with Hornady loaded ammo and components for calibers up to 338 WM, including on-game performance. The Superformance 180g GMXs from my 300 WM were hell on PG up to blue wildebeest and kudu. The inexpensive American Whitetail 90 grainers are half MOA in my son's 243 and neither doe that has fallen to them has taken a step.

I do not have experience with DGX/DGS on game, and given the comments here I may be irrevocably biased against ever using them - even in the new bonded version. I have several boxes of the older non-bonded stuff in 375 H&H I got a great deal on a few years back (before they introduced the bonded stuff). I'll use those for practice and reload the brass, but I'll use a TSX or AFrame for game.

Bob Nelson 35Whelen · Jan 21, 2020

Red Leg said:
It was the DGS issue. Most frustrating was Hornady’s stubborn refusal to acknowledge a problem. I had a 300 gr bullet from a .375 come apart on a sable in Mozambique. It still worked, but I was never tempted to try them on a buffalo. I brought it up with them at SCI four years ago at the height of the failure reports, and they refused to acknowledge their was an issue much less a problem with the bullet. I suppose I can understand their reluctance due to liability concerns, but it was a problem that took too long to fix. I am sure it cost them business.

The new bonded core bullet should be fine, and I am a real fan of the new ELD-X bullet in the Precision Hunter line. As noted above, we would never have returned so many classic doubles to the field were it not for Hornady, so I wish them success moving forward recapturing market share.

Red leg
A friend of mine on safari in Namibia last year found even tho it killed the ELDX was a miserable performer as it shed it's jacket on any thing he shot with the 300 win mag and 210gn ELDX. Even tho he is an excellent shot a,blesbuck he shot at around 250yards took 3 shots to drop despite 2 of those shots being perfect shoulder shots. He would have been better of using interbond or SST. 2 shots on a Hartman zebra, neither bullet exited and only jackets were found.
Just my opinion

Bob Nelson 35Whelen · Jan 21, 2020

Bonk said:
I'm not a Hornady fanboy nor a detractor. I've used their ammo in everything from 9mm to 458Win. IMO their Critical Duty handgun ammo is excellent stuff and I use it in my CCW. I'm also a big fan of their American Whitetail rifle ammo. I've used it with outstanding results in 30-06 and 25-06. The 25-06 was spectacularly accurate in my bone stock Ruger Hawkeye (sub .5 MOA all day everyday).

I've never hunted DG so I can't comment on how effective their DG bullets are on live game but I've shot a few of boxes of their DG ammo in my M70 458Win and it's devastating on rocks and tree stumps.

When I bought my CZ550 375H&H a few years ago I also bought a couple of boxes of Hornady to go with it. The first 3 rounds through the gun fired just fine but when I picked up the brass all three cases were split. Was it a gun problem or an ammo problem? I didn't have any other ammo at that time but a few days later I bought some Remington and cautiously shot 3 rounds and those cases were just fine. OK, seems like an ammo problem so I contacted Hornady and explained what was going on. I gave them the lot # and they immediately told me "Yep, we know about that problem." They told me to send them the ammo and they would replace it. I did and they did but it took a while (2-3 months IIRC). The replacement ammo shot just fine and there wasn't any more split brass.

Now in fairness the ammo in question was a few years old and had been sitting on the shelf at the gun store. Not a lot of folks around here buy 375H&H. Hornady may have tried to recall the ammo but for some reason these couple of boxes never made it back to the factory. I did go back to the gun store to let them know so they wouldn't sell any more of it. They said they would contact Hornady to replace their stock.

Bottom line for me is any manufacturing company of any product can have a lemon every now and then. I don't hold one bad batch of 375H&H against them. OTOH, I agree with the comments about Hornady Leverevolution 45-70 brass being too short. THAT little detail would have been good to know before I bought 5 boxes intending to use the brass for reloading.

Bonk
You can still reload the 45/70 cases you just need the new dimension dies. A pain in the ass 2 different dies for 1 caliber.

chonk34 · Jan 21, 2020

I had originally purchased Hornady's Superperformance SST ammunition for my .338 WM. At the suggestion of our outfitter I switched to Barnes VOR-TX TTSX BT for my hunt. At the range both rounds shot closer together than my own accuracy could differentiate. I only shot the Barnes ammo at live animals, and it seemed to do the job well. My dad wished that he had brought Hornady ELD-X for the smaller antelope he shot, because he thought they would leave a better blood trail. Nothing he shot with the Barnes rounds ran further than 30 yards, though, so it's not like tracking was needed. His 7mm Rem Mag with Barnes ammunition put down everything up to and including an Eland.

Captain Nwz · Jan 21, 2020

Oh , my. Now , l am genuinely concerned . I purchased a Winchester M70 Safari Express chambered in .458 Winchester Magnum recently , and 200 cartridges of Hornady DGS and DGX ammunition. I was planning on using it to hunt a tuskless cow elephant in South Africa two years down the line . After reading all these posts , l need to consider a change in ammunition choice.

Luvthunt · Jan 21, 2020

Cap Nwz——-Dont despair most problem appears to be the DGX not the DGS that you would be using on the tuskless.
An we should not overlook that Hornady has made design changes.

Hogpatrol · Jan 21, 2020

Major, If you really want to stir the pot, start another thread only change Hornady to Berger. I think they're universally hated more than any other bullet. Full disclosure, except for centerfire rifles under 6mm, they're all I use.

Hogpatrol · Jan 21, 2020

Captain Nwz said:
Oh , my. Now , l am genuinely concerned . I purchased a Winchester M70 Safari Express chambered in .458 Winchester Magnum recently , and 200 cartridges of Hornady DGS and DGX ammunition. I was planning on using it to hunt a tuskless cow elephant in South Africa two years down the line . After reading all these posts , l need to consider a change in ammunition choice.

Before getting your shorts all twisted, check the lot numbers and date of manufacture.

Red Leg · Jan 21, 2020

Bob Nelson 35Whelan said:
Red leg
A friend of mine on safari in Namibia last year found even tho it killed the ELDX was a miserable performer as it shed it's jacket on any thing he shot with the 300 win mag and 210gn ELDX. Even tho he is an excellent shot a,blesbuck he shot at around 250yards took 3 shots to drop despite 2 of those shots being perfect shoulder shots. He would have been better of using interbond or SST. 2 shots on a Hartman zebra, neither bullet exited and only jackets were found.
Just my opinion

I don’t know your friend, though taking three shots to put down a blesbok with a .300 sounds like something beyond bullet performance. I only have one animal down to date with the eld-x, a South Texas Nilgai at about 120-40 yards. The 200 gr bullet from the .300 Win Mag went through both shoulders tearing up the top of the heart making a .30 cal hole going in and a 40 cal hole leaving. Very impressive performance on very tough animal.

Tubby’s Canteen · Jan 21, 2020

Major Khan said:
Well , clearly a great deal of experienced sports men ( yourself included , Skinnersblade ) believe that Hornady ammunition leaves a great deal to be desired.

This was removed from the neck of a whitetail spike buck I shot late this fall approximately forty yards. The bullet hit the first vertabrae under the skull there was no exit wound no sign of the lead.
This was factory ammunition at an advertised mv of 2000fps. I've sense began to reload and have found that in order to get the bullets to remain intact. I have to slow them down to below 1700fps. At which point I may as well be shooting caste bullets. These tests were conducted into five gallon water jugs at fifty yards layed down.

Bob Nelson 35Whelen · Jan 21, 2020

Red Leg said:
I don’t know your friend, though taking three shots to put down a blesbok with a .300 sounds like something beyond bullet performance. I only have one animal down to date with the eld-x, a South Texas Nilgai at about 120-40 yards. The 200 gr bullet from the .300 Win Mag went through both shoulders tearing up the top of the heart making a .30 cal hole going in and a 40 cal hole leaving. Very impressive performance on very tough animal.

Red Leg
We can't explain it either bullets reached the vitals but didn't go down jackets were found in the chest cavity. Same gun same bullets 2 shoulder shots on a Hartman zebra thru and thru. No one can explain why. I have had the same problem with nosler ballistic tips, sometimes work sometimes not.
A mystery of life to ponder.

chashardy · Jan 21, 2020

Captain Nwz said:
Oh , my. Now , l am genuinely concerned . I purchased a Winchester M70 Safari Express chambered in .458 Winchester Magnum recently , and 200 cartridges of Hornady DGS and DGX ammunition. I was planning on using it to hunt a tuskless cow elephant in South Africa two years down the line . After reading all these posts , l need to consider a change in ammunition choice.

I tried Hornady in my M70 Safari Express in 375H&H. As I said in my earlier post about my other DG rifles, I found Federal ammo to be more accurate. Good luck.

Hillbilly Marine · Jan 21, 2020

I think I should come in with my two cents worth. No, I haven't been to Africa and haven't chased down DG. However, I have used Hornady DGX on deer. The new bonded DGX is world's different from the older DGX. I have never recovered a single bullet from my .416 Rigby that has taken a deer. This year I tried out the new bonded DGX and they tended to act more like a solid on whitetails I shot.

For my money, and whitetails, the old non-bonded DGX is better. Again, from my limited experience the new bonded DGX is much harder. I have used the DGX rounds since they shoot the most accurately from MY RIFLE.

Jaws · Jan 21, 2020

White tails and African buffalo are in two completely different categories.

The DGX is not up to a reliable standard for my liking to take down an animal that can & will kill you when given half a chance once badly injured due to poor bullet performance.
Again, why risk it when there are far better options that performs perfectly 99.9% of the time? we owe it to the animal we hunt, to kill cleanly.

I'm not bashing Hornady, I'm glad for all the positive things they do & stand for but not their DGX range, old & "improved" has a bad reputation & that will haunt them for many years.
BTW, I don't think the concern has ever been the hardness of the cup, but rather the bonding as the cup & core tends to separate cleanly & the cup disintegrate...perhaps too hard/brittle alloy causing it to break instead of disforming and remain bonded to the core?

Regardless, if Hornady does correct it, I'd suggest a new packaging or even a name change of the range ie DGXX or anything so people will know its really the improved / redesigned ammunition, but I suspect its a matter of cost. The old stock will be returned at a loss since no-one will want to use it.
To ID the new "improved DGX" ammunitions you have to lookup the serial number and do some funky science times the feeling of the color purple to know if it is the improved stock?
Is this a ploy to fool the uninformed & push it off to consumers to take more risks? I can see the benefit of this. If it fails, they can claim its the old / poor performing stock. if no feedback, no worries, the money is in the bank.
Unfortunately, reputation is always measured on the worst, never the best performance regardless of the cause.

Some pictures of the internal view of a buffalo cow hunted by a friend of mine (Frederik), just have a look at the size of the ribs that overlap each other like armor.
300grn .375 Woodleigh HD, bullet was found just under the skin on the opposite shoulder, perfect performance delivered from a quality bullet.

A Genuine Question : Why Is Hornady So Hated?

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