Flying guns through Europe?

JJRMT

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I’m looking at booking a flight from the US to Johannesburg on United. Most connections are in Frankfurt or Munich. Switching to either Lufthansa or SA Air. My concern is traveling with guns and the connection!! I see Lufthansa charges $460 per gun!! Not sure if this is the case when it’s a connecting flight or what?? Any advice here???
I’m trying to use United because I have a large credit with them already and do most of my travels with them or Star Alliance. Any advice or tips would be a great help!!
Thank you!!
 
I’m looking at booking a flight from the US to Johannesburg on United. Most connections are in Frankfurt or Munich. Switching to either Lufthansa or SA Air. My concern is traveling with guns and the connection!! I see Lufthansa charges $460 per gun!! Not sure if this is the case when it’s a connecting flight or what?? Any advice here???
I’m trying to use United because I have a large credit with them already and do most of my travels with them or Star Alliance. Any advice or tips would be a great help!!
Thank you!!
Contact Lori at @Travel Express if you don't already have a gun savvy travel agent. Depending on where you live, fly Delta from Atlanta to JoBurg and keep that $460 in your pocket. Keep that United milage to use for travel when you are not carrying guns.
 
I’m looking at booking a flight from the US to Johannesburg on United. Most connections are in Frankfurt or Munich. Switching to either Lufthansa or SA Air. My concern is traveling with guns and the connection!! I see Lufthansa charges $460 per gun!! Not sure if this is the case when it’s a connecting flight or what?? Any advice here???
I’m trying to use United because I have a large credit with them already and do most of my travels with them or Star Alliance. Any advice or tips would be a great help!!
Thank you!!


The money is not the real concern...you've got much bigger worries than using some Star miles and paying $460 for your guns. If this process seems anywhere from easy to moderately difficult to you, you are SERIOUSLY underestimating how screwed up things are going to get with what seems like a doable process.

As @sierraone mentioned, you need a travel expert with guns.

Lori at Travel Express or Steve at Travel With Guns are your best hopes.

What they know and you do not are the answers to these questions:

-Are there any arms embargoes intra EU route?
-Do you need special permits?
-Are you allowed to get the guns and switch carriers?
-Do you have to hire a gun agent to secure the guns and bring them between carriers?
-Do you have to book with certain carriers on ONE ticket to allow the guns allowed at all?
-Are guns used for safaris allowed on these soils?
-Are you required to put the ammo with the guns or separate?
-What kind of locks are required, some must be TSA "breakable", some are forbidden and must be unbreakable. Some you must have a key, some they must have the key too.
-Are 4457 permits enough to serve as licenses and are yours new enough to be considered valid by foreign powers?
-SAPS clearance?
-Are your guns legal intra-route?
-Are safaris allowed to be facilitated or transported by your carriers en route?


As a guy with a half-million miles on certain carriers, my advice to you is to throw away all your credits and buy tickets outright. I've never had the miles on One World or Star ever create a LEGAL solution where you can get from point A to Africa. In fact, the only miles that ever helped me at all were AMEX miles I used to upgrade emirates tickets that were already booked and permitted properly.

5 Africa trips so far via RSA to Zim...one guns lost debacle, one ammo didn't make it until the last second near debacle. Total time spent planning flight logistics...easily hundreds of hours.

Pessimistically, realistically yours,

Rookhawk
 
The easiest solution to getting your guns to Africa I've found...avoiding NYC and DC connections that lead to their own huge problems.

Get on an Emirates plane from your location to Dubai to Jo'Burg. Pay for the ticket. Get their gun permit approval which you can do yourself. Pay for a guy to meet you in Jo'Burg and help you with SAPS papers. Connect from there if you must. If staying overnight in Jo'Burg before safari, Afton house will help you with SAPS and get you to a safe hotel where your PH fetches you the next day.

That's the easiest solution. Don't understimate how screwed up your life can get before you leave the USA either. If you delay in NYC you're screwed...you're a felon if you retrieve your guns if you are not a NYC resident with a NYC gun permit. (if not a resident, you cannot obtain said permit)

Emirates is the cleanest path. Others have found good results with either SAA or Delta, I believe out of Atlanta. I don't know those two scenarios. Note that none of the scenarios are United, Star Alliance, or One World. (the frequent flyer miles are useless for safaris)
 
Unfortunately, traveling with firearms has become a veritable nightmare waiting to happen- may go smooth one time then turn into a real ssssstorm PITA the next time- not necessarily because the policies or even regs have changed, but could be as simple as an individual agent's or inspector's "idea" about a policy or reg has changed at that moment. Listen to those who have experience with the worst case, not those who have had the best experience. I have traveled everywhere for years with firearms and up until fairly recently not much issue if adequate preparations were followed. But not so any more. Most of my trips to Africa with rifles- no issues. But times are a-changin'. I've watched all manner of foul-ups unfold around me and want no part of it. More recently I've been lucky to have really good rifles, ammo and/or shotguns available through the PH/outfitter. While no travel is without stress, travel without firearms certainly seems stress free compared to travel with. Going without, as bad as it seems at a gut level, has advantages. You can set up your travel as if a regular "touri". Then schedule through whatever airport seems best for airline quality or points use or scheduling or whatever.

If bound and determined, then use one of the travel agencies who specialize in travel for hunters- use their firearm permitting and airline scheduling experience. Keep it simple! Pay attention to layover times and carrier/plane change times. From most of US, the simplest still is Delta ATL-JNB. Get the SAPS done ahead of time. Get your 4457 updated, use one of the travel agent's firearms permitting specialists for the latest info and help, use their "meet and greet" assistance at JNB. And if your PH has made arrangements to stay in town overnight- stay there. If no arrangements by PH, then stay at the City Lodge at the airport. Have your PH meet you for breakfast at the City Lodge (excellent breakfast included with room), then load up and go.
 
Thank you all for the advice!! Looks like I’ll keep it simple and go through Atlanta!! I’m very lucky too, looks like Lori with Travel Express is just down the road, so I’ll definitely be in touch soon!!
Thanks again, that’s the honesty I was hoping to hear!!
 
The easiest solution to getting your guns to Africa I've found...avoiding NYC and DC connections that lead to their own huge problems.

Get on an Emirates plane from your location to Dubai to Jo'Burg. Pay for the ticket. Get their gun permit approval which you can do yourself. Pay for a guy to meet you in Jo'Burg and help you with SAPS papers. Connect from there if you must. If staying overnight in Jo'Burg before safari, Afton house will help you with SAPS and get you to a safe hotel where your PH fetches you the next day.

That's the easiest solution. Don't understimate how screwed up your life can get before you leave the USA either. If you delay in NYC you're screwed...you're a felon if you retrieve your guns if you are not a NYC resident with a NYC gun permit. (if not a resident, you cannot obtain said permit)

Emirates is the cleanest path. Others have found good results with either SAA or Delta, I believe out of Atlanta. I don't know those two scenarios. Note that none of the scenarios are United, Star Alliance, or One World. (the frequent flyer miles are useless for safaris)

This demonstrates just how unconstitutional the people's democratic republic of New York has become.
 
You got some terrible advice there, honestly.....

You are flying with United which is apart of Star Alliance. As long as you remain with Star Alliance like Lufthansa, South African, Ethiopian, LOT etc. You are 100% fine. You won't touch your guns, you won't answer any questions about them, the people in Germany won't even care or know you are travelling with one. All the fees that airlines have will be paid at your port of departure. Then from there on out you won't see your gun until Joberg. The issues people have with Europe is when they switch airlines who don't have baggage deals. Because you now need to claim your baggage at baggage claim, then re check them into your other airline. And in there opinion you now have access and custody of your rifle, which would require various importation documents etc. For example I have a long layover in Germany t his coming trip. If I had to switch airlines, I technically would have 10 hours to go explore Germany with all my bags including my rifle. So that would be a concern for them. But because I am stickign to Star Alliance, my gun and bags will stay with the airline and I have no access to them until Joberg where I would have the proper documentation done prior to coming anyways.

As per flying on points. How the hell would that change anything? That is total nonsense. I am 100k status with Star Alliance (the highest possible), I fly over 90 flights a year for work. I have traveled for hunting on points over a dozen times. Including to Argentina and South Africa. I have never had single issue with the fact I flew on points.
 
One comment I would make. This is not personal experience, but from what I read a few years ago by someone dealing with this issue. They said the UK is the worst place and you want to avoid that country at all costs. He alleged that they will seize your guns, and they'll never show up at your destination. They supposedly don't want them moving around even in their airports by their own employees. I can't swear to it, but considering my experiences in dealing with British bureaucracy in various capacities -- official and personal -- while in that country, I would not doubt what the guy said. It's also reflective of the typical Brit's attitude toward firearm ownership. They're overwhelmingly hostile to gun ownership, and have no problem with their government stealing people's property, be it their own citizens or foreigners. They stole a friend's handguns -- six of them worth over $10,000 way back in the 1990s -- and from a guy who was a wealthy leader of his community in East Kent. His "compensation" was literally pennies on the dollar, and most gun owners didn't get squat. I can see British police seizing firearms locked in cases passing through their airports, simply as a matter of personal distain for them.

Again, this isn't guidance. Just impressions based on other people's experiences. Germany is probably another story.

Would love to read of others' experience with the UK. That country won't even allow its own Olympians to practice with guns kept at a range for the purpose. They have to go to France or Switzerland to practice. This is a major reason why the Brits NEVER even place, let alone get medals, in the shooting sports. It's a cultural thing going way back. In the two world wars, especially WWII, brit soldiers were horrible compared to Americans, due to our guys typically knowing how to shoot being gun owners at home.
 
I don't know why the London has the bad press. It's very straight forward on BA. You pay them the fee and your gun will arrive where it's supposed to unless you are flying to Zimbabwe. No European county will let you take a gun there, you have to ticket to JNB and then separate ticket to Zimbabwe. They will confirm with you before you board the plane at Heathrow, that your gun is on the plane. Where problems can happen, is if you have to transfer between Heathrow and Gatwick, and you do not allow enough time for the gun transfer between your flights. Other problems that had have happen in the past are flying from the USA on AA metal and then BA from Heathrow to JNB. AA would not transfer between carriers, I believe that this may now have been changed at least from looking at their website. That's not Heathrow, the UK or BA fault, it's AA fault. United would not transfer guns at Heathrow, except to SSA, not sure if that is still the same or has changed too.
 
I don't know why the London has the bad press. It's very straight forward on BA. You pay them the fee and your gun will arrive where it's supposed to unless you are flying to Zimbabwe. No European county will let you take a gun there, you have to ticket to JNB and then separate ticket to Zimbabwe. They will confirm with you before you board the plane at Heathrow, that your gun is on the plane. Where problems can happen, is if you have to transfer between Heathrow and Gatwick, and you do not allow enough time for the gun transfer between your flights. Other problems that had have happen in the past are flying from the USA on AA metal and then BA from Heathrow to JNB. AA would not transfer between carriers, I believe that this may now have been changed at least from looking at their website. That's not Heathrow, the UK or BA fault, it's AA fault. United would not transfer guns at Heathrow, except to SSA, not sure if that is still the same or has changed too.

Great to hear. Thanks for the update.
 
I would rely on knowledgeable travel agents, and take full advantage of those agents who help you in various countries (as mentioned by @rookhawk, for example). There is a lot of lore in this area, much it anecdotal and much of it second or more hand.

Problems do arise, and when they do, there is nothing better than having a local person who knows the ins and outs, and maybe even the language. I've had issues, and never regretted these local people. Cheap insurance in my view.

As for airports, here's another anecdote. With the exception of my safaris in West Africa, I have always flown Air Canada and SAA (or Ethiopian) through London (all Star Alliance). I have never had an issue in London (LHR) with my guns. I never see them, and no one has ever asked me about them. Could not have ever been easier. Yet many swear that London is the death zone for guns. Not my experience. Over a dozen experiences through there with firearms. But I can tell you if you fly into one airport (like Gatwick) and leave from another (like LHR), you will have to get a bonded courier to transport the guns between airports. Pain in the butt and not worth the risk of delays. Stick to one airport.

As for West Africa, I always fly Air Canada (Star Alliance) to Paris and then Air France (Sky Team) to wherever (Benin, Cameroon). Never had an issue, although I was once asked by Air France at the boarding gate if I had firearms. "Well, not on me" I replied, but in my luggage. "Great" was the response. "Just wanted to make sure they were yours." (If only they'd asked about the ammo. That, they lost).

So much for airports. I would, though, believe the stories about airlines. Some seem to have a real aversion to firearms. I'm kind of OK with those which charge an extra fee - it means that they're OK to travel with firearms, and they look at them as a money maker. Better than those which look at firearms as a money loser.

Good luck.
 
I flew through London last time as well. No one even asked about my gun in London. Problem is, guys in the US are flying with American, Delta, Continental etc to London. Then jumping onto SA or Lufthansa. And this is a issue because now you need papers to get your guns from baggage claim. But when staying on a Star Allaince airline like Air Canada (Canadians only option) or United for Americans. Then your laughing. No one will even ask you about your gun.
 
About to book my 4th flight from New England to South Africa and I am going through the same agonizing ritual of searching for short, affordable flights. I spend hours and hours on the internet and I read all of the posts here with the same results. I can not see spending the same or more money to end up with a "better" airline and have my total travel time increase from 19 hours (including connection to Zim) to 32 hours or more. I end up on SAA from JFK to Joburg, meet Mr. X from Afton House and get ushered through the firearms ritual without a hitch and get my connecting flight without any bother. I have never had any trouble with TSA or the Port Authority Police concerning firearms or ammunition in NY and EVERYONE at JFK has always been helpful and courteous. I am sure that sooner or later, I will have a less than enjoyable experience but, except for the less than generous seats on SAA, there has yet to be an issue.
 
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I’m looking at booking a flight from the US to Johannesburg on United. Most connections are in Frankfurt or Munich. Switching to either Lufthansa or SA Air. My concern is traveling with guns and the connection!! I see Lufthansa charges $460 per gun!! Not sure if this is the case when it’s a connecting flight or what?? Any advice here???
I’m trying to use United because I have a large credit with them already and do most of my travels with them or Star Alliance. Any advice or tips would be a great help!!
Thank you!!
JJRMT,
Have you considered KLM (Amsterdam)? I think they fly out of NY, Atlanta and Washington, and maybe more, you would have to check. I used them to go from Toronto to Namibia in 2018 with no problems. They did not charge me any extra for the rifle case as 2 pieces of checked luggage are allowed on a flight that far. I made sure to register with them the fact that I would be bringing a firearm with me at the time I booked my flight. Once my luggage was checked in at Toronto, I never saw it again until I picked it up in Windhoek. I am no expert, but it seems that a lot of the trouble guys run into with international travel comes when more than one airline is used, too many moving parts, so to speak. The beauty of using only one airline for the entire trip is that there is only one set of airline rules to follow, simplifying the process.
Whatever you decide, the advice on this site regarding the proper paperwork is outstanding! Rules change, policy comes and goes, but the advice here for us to reference was an important part of my preparation process.
Good luck!
 
Hi, I am flying out to South African from Düsseldorf - via Istanbul - to Johannesburg and then on the way back from Cape Town - via Istanbul for a 2-day stopover - to Düsseldorf. I am flying Turkish Airlines this time (normally KLM or Air France).

Seemingly my luggage can only be booked through to its end destination (Düsseldorf) if the stop-over in Istanbul is less than 24 hours. I would love to go out and see the city and leave the hunting rifle at the airport ideally on the airside. Is there any tips any of you can give to be able to go into a stop-over location such as in this case Istanbul and how this would be possible with the hunting rifle transport? Thanks for any tips.
 

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