.458 Winchester Magnum too much gun?

Kawshik Rahman · Nov 26, 2019

I feel that l can offer one insight which may interest you gentlemen.
During my time , when solid metal envelope bullets were still the standard ammunition to use for follow up shots on Gaur , l observed that a Gaur shot in the heart with a 300 grain .375 Holland and Holland magnum calibre metal envelope bullet , can survive for a full 17 minutes and still be a threat to the Shikari .
A Gaur shot in the same place , with a 500 grain metal envelope bullet from a .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifle will drop dead in less than seven minutes , at most ( usually less ) .
Speaking strictly about metal envelope bullets , a 500 grain .458 calibre bullet blows a bigger hole in a Gaur's heart than a 300 grain .375 bore bullet , which aids in greater damage .
In deed , in those days of metal envelope bullets , the heavier bullet from a .458 Winchester magum calibre rifle could indeed take the fight out of a Gaur faster than a .375 bore bullet.
However , with the advancements of munitions made today , l have no doubt that a good .375 Holland and Holland magnum calibre bullet with a controlled rate of expansion , which can properly open up inside a buffalo's heart or lungs , is perfectly adequate for the task .

CoElkHunter · Nov 26, 2019

Ok, I’ll stir the cauldron! Browning BAR pre Mark 2 (Not sure why pre-maybe steel receiver?) in .458 WM or .416 Taylor from factory chambered .338 WM? I read somewhere several months ago that someone had made these conversations. Same cartridge lengths, widths and rim diameter. Yeah I know semi-auto hunting rifles aren’t legal in many countries and this probably wouldn’t qualify as a DG rifle anywhere, but still an interesting concept? As with all semi-auto platforms, recoil is reduced somewhat for follow up shots if one was concerned about .458 recoil? I wouldn’t use one on DG, but it would be interesting to shoot? Yes, off the topic here, but .458 and recoil and my feeble mind remembered reading this?

Red Leg · Nov 26, 2019

WAB said:
However, I’d be perfectly happy to hunt with you while you’re using your .375! I’m sure we’d have a blast.

Now as to that, I am certain.

Red Leg · Nov 26, 2019

Kawshik Rahman said:
I feel that l can offer one insight which may interest you gentlemen.
During my time , when solid metal envelope bullets were still the standard ammunition to use for follow up shots on Gaur , l observed that a Gaur shot in the heart with a 300 grain .375 Holland and Holland magnum calibre metal envelope bullet , can survive for a full 17 minutes and still be a threat to the Shikari .
A Gaur shot in the same place , with a 500 grain metal envelope bullet from a .458 Winchester magnum calibre rifle will drop dead in less than seven minutes , at most ( usually less ) .
Speaking strictly about metal envelope bullets , a 500 grain .458 calibre bullet blows a bigger hole in a Gaur's heart than a 300 grain .375 bore bullet , which aids in greater damage .
In deed , in those days of metal envelope bullets , the heavier bullet from a .458 Winchester magum calibre rifle could indeed take the fight out of a Gaur faster than a .375 bore bullet.
However , with the advancements of munitions made today , l have no doubt that a good .375 Holland and Holland magnum calibre bullet with a controlled rate of expansion , which can properly open up inside a buffalo's heart or lungs , is perfectly adequate for the task .

I am sure that is correct. It is why when I hunt buffalo with my .375 that I have a magazine full of either Swift A-frames or TSX's. These days I would only use a solid for tiny game like oribi or duiker - or for the largest - an elephant. A modern soft point is decisive.

Look, no one will argue - certainly not me - that a bigger bullet at meaningful velocity will have greater effect than a smaller one. HOWEVER, if the rifle utilizing the smaller bullet is more versatile, accurate, and transportable than the larger caliber, that too needs to figure into the equation. As I say, I use the .375 by choice.

Pondoro · Nov 27, 2019

.458Win. is not too much gun for buffalo…. .375H&H with 300 grain swift A-frames is excellent, with or without scope..

Now..if you hunt without a scope you will probably burn a lot of chances to shoot...but that said….I would love to hunt buffalo with a double rifle with iron sights….stalk within 40-60 meters and take him..

Luvthunt · Nov 27, 2019

A good big bullet will always be better then a good little bullet.

Dr Ray · Nov 27, 2019

I suggest test the 458 is actually under-powered.
If you find the 458 too much for you, then drop back. You need to be confident to place your shot rather than relying on more power that you are not confident with.
The more “crunch” factor the better (within sensible parameters of course) but nothing beats a well placed shot.

Kawshik Rahman · Nov 27, 2019

CoElkHunter said:
Ok, I’ll stir the cauldron! Browning BAR pre Mark 2 (Not sure why pre-maybe steel receiver?) in .458 WM or .416 Taylor from factory chambered .338 WM? I read somewhere several months ago that someone had made these conversations. Same cartridge lengths, widths and rim diameter. Yeah I know semi-auto hunting rifles aren’t legal in many countries and this probably wouldn’t qualify as a DG rifle anywhere, but still an interesting concept? As with all semi-auto platforms, recoil is reduced somewhat for follow up shots if one was concerned about .458 recoil? I wouldn’t use one on DG, but it would be interesting to shoot? Yes, off the topic here, but .458 and recoil and my feeble mind remembered reading this?

Co Elk Hunter
If only such a thing existed fifty years ago . In India , it was legal for client Shikaris to bring auto loader rifles for Shikar. The .30-06 calibre M1 Garand rifle was a popular rifle brought by my clients

Kawshik Rahman · Nov 27, 2019

Red Leg said:
I am sure that is correct. It is why when I hunt buffalo with my .375 that I have a magazine full of either Swift A-frames or TSX's. These days I would only use a solid for tiny game like oribi or duiker - or for the largest - an elephant. A modern soft point is decisive.

Look, no one will argue - certainly not me - that a bigger bullet at meaningful velocity will have greater effect than a smaller one. HOWEVER, if the rifle utilizing the smaller bullet is more versatile, accurate, and transportable than the larger caliber, that too needs to figure into the equation. As I say, I use the .375 by choice.

Red Leg
You are 100 % correct . I 100 % agree with you and personally favor the .375 Holland and Holland magnum over the .458 Winchester magnum calibre , because of the exact same reasons . The sheer versatility of this cartridge is unrivalled , especially in Old India , where the client was only allowed to bring two fire arms into the country and 250 cartridges .
At any rate , l am certain that no sensible Shikari will ever use a solid metal envelope bullet to hunt a buffalo today , anyway.

Red Leg · Nov 27, 2019

Pondoro said:
.458Win. is not too much gun for buffalo…. .375H&H with 300 grain swift A-frames is excellent, with or without scope..

Now..if you hunt without a scope you will probably burn a lot of chances to shoot...but that said….I would love to hunt buffalo with a double rifle with iron sights….stalk within 40-60 meters and take him..

As you can tell, I love my .375’s. But between you and me, if and when I go and hunt a fifth buffalo, I’ll probably bring my double .470 (unless that hunt takes place in the Zambezi Delta). I am blessed to be at the point that I don’t “need” to shoot another bull. If the ideal shot doesn’t present itself, then it won’t be a big deal.

Foxi · Nov 27, 2019

Kawshik Rahman said:
At any rate , l am certain that no sensible Shikari will ever use a solid metal envelope bullet to hunt a buffalo today , anyway.

That I do not understand at all, I have shot so much game with full metal jacket, can not complain.
Also two capes I shot with FJM.One of them without a FMJ/solid, not to get.
Best effect.After 15-60 m everything was going down.
A friend, round 50 buffalos on his list, all with .375 and FMJ.
If a bullet goes through the bushes, as is often the case , I know at least that in the shoulder is a deep hole.
From the Soft bullets nobody can say that, no matter what he shoots.If a soft bullet comes across it does not penetrate deep enough, the damage to the FJM/Solid is much greater.
Shoot once 10 heads game at home, if legal and good shots provided and you will be surprised, not to mention the meat processing.

in those area,I feel much better with a solid.One step right or left and he is in cover.

Exit hole on a fresh 70 centimeter beech
300 gn Hornady FJM .375
Dont have sorrows,placed in the machineroom, the wound channel is big enough
Foxi

Kawshik Rahman · Nov 27, 2019

Foxi said:
That I do not understand at all, I have shot so much game with full metal jacket, can not complain.
Also two capes I shot with FJM.One of them without a FMJ not to get.
Best effect.After 15-60 m everything was going down.
A friend, round 50 buffalos on his list, all with .375 and FMJ.
If a bullet goes through the bushes, as is often the case , I know at least that in the shoulder is a deep hole.
From the Soft bullets nobody can say that, no matter what he shoots.If a soft bullet comes across it does not penetrate deep enough, the damage to the FJM is much greater.
Shoot once 10 heads game at home, if legal and good shots provided and you will be surprised, not to mention the meat processing.
Foxi

Foxi
You will forgive me , my friend . It was not my intention to write anything disrespectful to others ( especially you ) . I was genuinely under the impression that metal envelope bullets these days are no longer used for shooting buffaloes .
During my free time , when l am reading many of the posts on these forums , l see that most forum members who shoot Cape buffaloes advocate a modern soft nose cartridge with a controlled rate of expansion called a " Swift A Frame " . Therefore , l ( rather foolishly ) assumed that metal envelope bullets were no longer used by any of you gentlemen for shooting buffaloes. On a personal note , during my career , metal envelope bullets were always used for the follow up shots on Gaur bisons and Indian water buffaloes. I merely assumed that no one does it anymore .
Again , l sincerely apologise .

Foxi · Nov 27, 2019

You don't have to apologize, for what my friend?
Everyone only writing his experience and opinion .
Thats all.
Per year ,I shoot round ten heads of game (where is allowed)with solids ,never lost an animal.

this fellow was only "free for the picture".In this stuff ,no chance without a solid.

Von S. · Nov 27, 2019

I have used and have personally considered the 458 the absolute minimum for dangerous game and though I dropped an elephant dead in his tracks with one shot afyer being already hit with three, I considered, poorly placed shots with a 375 HH .I do not consider the 458 a suitable round for elephants or rhino and at best the lower end of the power spectrum for capes.

YancyW · Nov 27, 2019

I am far from an expert on buffalo hunting, but the concept of "too much gun", has always seemed odd to me. All other things being equal, I always want more gun that I think I'm going to need. There is zero downside, so even if the upside is small, it still makes sense, at least to me.

Head Trauma · Nov 27, 2019

Take a look at the Buffalo charge video I just posted.

Then ask yourself about having too much gun. When you pull the trigger on a buffalo, you just don't know what's going to happen afterwards.

Most times they just just run away; sometimes they don't.

CoElkHunter · Nov 27, 2019

Kawshik Rahman said:
Co Elk Hunter
If only such a thing existed fifty years ago . In India , it was legal for client Shikaris to bring auto loader rifles for Shikar. The .30-06 calibre M1 Garand rifle was a popular rifle brought by my clients

That’s interesting? I know the Garands were plentiful after WW2, but you don’t here much about them being used for hunting? Too heavy to carry around all day?

grand veneur · Nov 27, 2019

Von S. said:
I have used and have personally considered the 458 the absolute minimum for dangerous game and though I dropped an elephant dead in his tracks with one shot afyer being already hit with three, I considered, poorly placed shots with a 375 HH .I do not consider the 458 a suitable round for elephants or rhino and at best the lower end of the power spectrum for capes.

How am I to understand that ?

I felt me until now more and more over-gunned with my rifles caliber 460WM and 500 Schüler.

grand veneur · Nov 27, 2019

YancyW said:
I am far from an expert on buffalo hunting, but the concept of "too much gun", has always seemed odd to me. All other things being equal, I always want more gun that I think I'm going to need. There is zero downside, so even if the upside is small, it still makes sense, at least to me.

"too much gun" in general should already be relativized. Starting at a certain caliber size , increasing the caliber of the cartridges does not add much more than weight and recoil of the rifles. By that I mean caliber 458 as a maximum for the buffalo for example. Different for the elephant , but where cartridges caliber over 577 are also questionable. Not forget that one must carry such heavy rifles around in the area and shoot under difficult conditions with it. Sometimes you have to be able to make good compromises in the choice of your rifle for hunting DG.

flatwater bill · Nov 27, 2019

Kwashik............I like that water buffalo better than any I have ever seen! What a great trophy. Thanks for posting........................Bill

.458 Winchester Magnum too much gun?

Kawshik Rahman

CoElkHunter

Red Leg

Red Leg

Pondoro

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Dr Ray

Kawshik Rahman

Kawshik Rahman

Red Leg

Foxi

Kawshik Rahman

Foxi

Von S.

YancyW

Head Trauma

CoElkHunter

grand veneur

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flatwater bill

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