Double Rifles vs Bolt Actions - Speed tests

IvW · Aug 28, 2019

rookhawk said:
Not really. The original defect sounds like it was badly formed chambers with the result being damaged, non-reusable brass.

So a badly made double to start with, that cost a lot of money...who would want such a thing....
Any gunsmith worth half his salt can cut a chamber to the correct dimensions...

Nobody I can think of in his right mind would want to hunt DG with such a rifle, not me anyway. If he re barreled the double and sorted the issue it may be a bit different but we all know that clearly did not happen and walking away from the crap you made and sold, well that seals your death penalty, for me anyway....

They are also not exactly cheap....

Shawn.54 · Aug 28, 2019

This rifle fixes all the problems double barrel bolt action holds 8 rounds of 416 Rem. And for for a mear 150k you could have one too.
Shawn

IvW · Aug 28, 2019

Shawn.54 said:
View attachment 302457
This rifle fixes all the problems double barrel bolt action holds 8 rounds of 416 Rem. And for for a mear 150k you could have one too.
Shawn

Bad caliber and no selective ejection....150K? you can do much better with that...and hunt a whole bunch....

rookhawk · Aug 28, 2019

On the points of muscle memory and using a double rifle:

If you ever want a double rifle and you want to be good, go buy an English Boxlock 12 gauge shotgun with double triggers. Shoot it a LOT, using up perhaps 10 cases or more of ammo. You will have a great headstart on a double rifle.

On the note of double rifle accuracy for client's, I think @Red Leg 's point, this is in my opinion:

The right double rifle option. Get a "client" double rifle not a "professional" double rifle. The differences? A.) Client double should be in 450/400 or 470 as they are manageable to shoot and are designed to hunt game. (A professional is shooting a gun to STOP game...that's different) B.) A client Double should have a scope or reflex sight in quick detach mounts. You can then take your 80-100 yard shot if you must, immediately remove the scope, and stalk the game with it unscoped for a charge.

The only consequence is that the weight of the double must be less, like my 470 at a diminutive 9lbs 12 ounces. It produces a nasty 75-85lbs of recoil unscoped. Scoped at 11lbs 2 ounces, it produces 66lbs-75lbs, a world of difference. Will I notice that recoil during a charge, unscoped, after the first shot? No, I won't nor will any hunter. No hunter remembers the recoil of a shot during a charge.

AZDAVE · Aug 28, 2019

Each of these platforms have their strength and weakness. I am a double guy that shoots them allot, I have also shot most every style of bolt gun. From the 1880's forward. The only straight pulls I have shot are older styer and k31's. With bolt guns I find the newer 3 front lug bolts are a tad faster that the tradition 2 front lug (Mauser style) bolt guns just due to a shorter angle of bolt manipulation. The straight pulls are just a bit quicker in my hands (Haven't shot a Blazer straight pull yet). I can shoot 3 shots faster with a bolt gun than a double but shot 4 shots faster with a double. Haven't shot a straight pull for speed in a long time so don't have a valid comparison.

The one area that hasn’t been brought up yet is that you will never short stroke and jam a double.

I haven't had to face a charge from any of the dangerous 7, with the video's and first hand experience from PH's I have spoke with it happens very quickly and is resolved with 2 shots (4 if both the PH and client are shooting) or someone gets hurt. So no matter which platform you prefer practice getting two accurate shots on target to the best of your ability.

Red Leg · Aug 28, 2019

Shawn.54 said:
View attachment 302457
This rifle fixes all the problems double barrel bolt action holds 8 rounds of 416 Rem. And for for a mear 150k you could have one too.
Shawn

No it doesn’t. The stupid thing ejects both rounds whether fired or not.

Fastrig · Aug 28, 2019

rookhawk said:
On the points of muscle memory and using a double rifle:

If you ever want a double rifle and you want to be good, go buy an English Boxlock 12 gauge shotgun with double triggers. Shoot it a LOT, using up perhaps 10 cases or more of ammo. You will have a great headstart on a double rifle.

On the note of double rifle accuracy for client's, I think @Red Leg 's point, this is in my opinion:

The right double rifle option. Get a "client" double rifle not a "professional" double rifle. The differences? A.) Client double should be in 450/400 or 470 as they are manageable to shoot and are designed to hunt game. (A professional is shooting a gun to STOP game...that's different) B.) A client Double should have a scope or reflex sight in quick detach mounts. You can then take your 80-100 yard shot if you must, immediately remove the scope, and stalk the game with it unscoped for a charge.

The only consequence is that the weight of the double must be less, like my 470 at a diminutive 9lbs 12 ounces. It produces a nasty 75-85lbs of recoil unscoped. Scoped at 11lbs 2 ounces, it produces 66lbs-75lbs, a world of difference. Will I notice that recoil during a charge, unscoped, after the first shot? No, I won't nor will any hunter. No hunter remembers the recoil of a shot during a charge.

View attachment 302461

Question on double rifles. I've seen side by sides and over and under versions. I shoot a lot of over and under shotguns so if I was to get a double some day would an over and under double rifle be the better choice? Not sure what the advantages and disadvantages are in rifles with O/U vs S/S configurations....I'm not crazy about S/S shotguns and prefer the O/U's. Thanks!!

Oh, that is a beautiful rifle.....

Fastrig · Aug 28, 2019

Red Leg said:
No it doesn’t. The stupid thing ejects both rounds whether fired or not.

Not sure what that rifle is, but it looks cool....why would you design a rifle that ejects like that though

rookhawk · Aug 28, 2019

Fastrig said:
Question on double rifles. I've seen side by sides and over and under versions. I shoot a lot of over and under shotguns so if I was to get a double some day would an over and under double rifle be the better choice? Not sure what the advantages and disadvantages are in rifles with O/U vs S/S configurations....I'm not crazy about S/S shotguns and prefer the O/U's. Thanks!!

Oh, that is a beautiful rifle.....

Super contentious debate on that topic, @Fastrig

Since I use SxS shotguns with double triggers, I have zero learning curve for SxS double trigger double rifles. I know how to operate it, I know how it points, and I know how to use the triggers in an instant with no confusion.

For someone familiar with O/U shotguns, you'd need to do some real soul searching to decide if you want an O/U double rifle. There are many good reasons for a SxS, and while the market says its very hard to sell an O/U double rifle, the opinions regarding their suitability vary greatly amongst well informed people on this forum.

Red Leg · Aug 28, 2019

Fastrig said:
Not sure what that rifle is, but it looks cool....why would you design a rifle that ejects like that though

Because no one has figured out how to pull a bolt to the rear without ejecting everything in the chambers. And won’t.

There is nothing wrong with an OU double rifle. Traditionalists hate them because they aren’t - well - traditional - at least in the English sense of the word. But had Germany won WWI and hung onto German East (Tanzania) and Southwest Africa (Namibia) our perception of PH’s and “proper” double rifles would be entirely different and far more Teutonic.

The “experts” will claim they are harder to reload under duress because the barrels drop farther. Nonsense. Take a SxS shotgun and OU to the clays range and see which is actually faster. And all will grudgingly admit OU’s are easier to regulate and use with a scope. The difficulty, because of prejudice against them, is finding a quality one in this country.

Were I wealthy enough to opt between a 500/416 Rising Bite built by Rigby or a 500/416 OU built by Hartman & Weiss, H&W would win. And I worship at the alter of my .275 Rigby.

rookhawk · Aug 28, 2019

Red Leg said:
Were I wealthy enough to opt between a 500/416 Rising Bite built by Rigby or a 500/416 OU built by Hartman & Weiss, H&W would win. And I worship at the alter of my .275 Rigby.

Now @Red Leg , you know my disdain for the proto-typical O/U double rifle...but throwing up a H&W "boss style sidelock O/U" as an example is an exception on any sane person's list. Now to come up with the $250,000-$500,000 for a Hartmann & Weis may be a different issue.

As much as I'm not a francophile (more an Anglophile), the Heym dangerous game Vierling (4 barrel gun) is also a sublime work of art as well.

But back down to reality here, I'd rather have a SxS and I'd rather it be a Birmingham boxlock, even though I own a German best gun that is generally what the cool kids today call "Fugly".

Fastrig · Aug 28, 2019

Red Leg said:
Because no one has figured out how to pull a bolt to the rear without ejecting everything in the chambers. And won’t.

There is nothing wrong with an OU double rifle. Traditionalists hate them because they aren’t - well - traditional - at least in the English sense of the word. But had Germany won WWI and hung onto German East (Tanzania) and Southwest Africa (Namibia) our perception of PH’s and “proper” double rifles would be entirely different and far more Teutonic.

The “experts” will claim they are harder to reload under duress because the barrels drop farther. Nonsense. Take a SxS shotgun and OU to the clays range and see which is actually faster. And all will grudgingly admit OU’s are easier to regulate and use with a scope. The difficulty, because of prejudice against them, is finding a quality one in this country.

Were I wealthy enough to opt between a 500/416 Rising Bite built by Rigby or a 500/416 OU built by Hartman & Weiss, H&W would win. And I worship at the alter of my .275 Rigby.

Never seen a rifle like that...makes sense now that you explained it to me

Would think the O/U rifles would be easier to regulate with a scope and I've never had a problem quickly reloading my O/U shotguns. I'll take a look at the H&W rifles Thanks!!

Opposite Pole · Aug 28, 2019

Fastrig said:
I was considering a double rifle at one point, but after handling a Blaser R8 and seeing how fast it cycles, then thinking through the scenario(s) I'd be hunting in, i.e. with a PH, I couldn't see where a very expensive double made any sense for me as a "client" to carry. You have at least one PH backing you up, normally with a "stopping" power rifle, so more than one rifle barrel is ready to go immediately which kind of negates the need for a client needing a double. The only place I'd use a double is Africa so why not get a rifle like the R8 that is useful in Africa, the States, or pretty much anywhere else I'd want to hunt, for a fraction of the price of the double. I'm going with a R8 with 375 H&H and 300 win mag barrels, can't think of anything I can't do with that combo alongside a PH.

You can get a double with two or mores sets of barrels to suit numerous hunting scenarios such as pig, deer or PG hunting.

CTDolan · Aug 28, 2019

Extra sets of barrels in a double = $$$!!! More power to those who can, though!

In my opinion a double rifle has one place in the field…close range, open sights, fast shooting. They’re generally only good (regulated) for one load, and even at that are not MOA rifles. But, when made right they handle like a dream (I’ve shouldered big doubles north of 10 pounds that felt remarkably light, swinging as though they were much less heavy).

I’d not hesitate to take a double in the deer woods (in fact, one of my dream rifles, which I will never have the pleasure of owning I am certain, is an O/U on the Boss system (could be by Boss, Hartmann & Weiss, Sinnerton, or another equally capable) in .303 British...could not imagine a better rifle for whitetail deer in the heavy forests of northern Minnesota). I’d also not hesitate to take a double into the thick stuff after something big, mean and nasty. The platform is ideal for these kinds of situations. But, as another has already stated, slipping a big bullet into the sweet spot of a Cape buffalo, in poor light, in a herd, from 80 meters is not the place for a double. That situation falls squarely in the realm of a scoped, bolt-action rifle (leave the double for the man that has to go after the beast and clean up the mess made by the fella that wanted to take his treasured .470 to Africa, despite being a somewhat mediocre shot with the piece).

Fastrig · Aug 28, 2019

Opposite Pole said:
You can get a double with two or mores sets of barrels to suit numerous hunting scenarios such as pig, deer or PG hunting.

Aren't double's only good out to about 100 yards? That was my impression, and if so, I'd stick with a bolt action for anything other the DG.

Opposite Pole · Aug 28, 2019

CTDolan said:
Extra sets of barrels in a double = $$$!!! More power to those who can, though!

In my opinion a double rifle has one place in the field…close range, open sights, fast shooting. They’re generally only good (regulated) for one load, and even at that are not MOA rifles. But, when made right they handle like a dream (I’ve shouldered big doubles north of 10 pounds that felt remarkably light, swinging as though they were much less heavy).

I’d not hesitate to take a double in the deer woods (in fact, one of my dream rifles, which I will never have the pleasure of owning I am certain, is an O/U on the Boss system (could be by Boss, Hartmann & Weiss, Sinnerton, or another equally capable) in .303 British...could not imagine a better rifle for whitetail deer in the heavy forests of northern Minnesota). I’d also not hesitate to take a double into the thick stuff after something big, mean and nasty. The platform is ideal for these kinds of situations. But, as another has already stated, slipping a big bullet into the sweet spot of a Cape buffalo, in poor light, in a herd, from 80 meters is not the place for a double. That situation falls squarely in the realm of a scoped, bolt-action rifle (leave the double for the man that has to go after the beast and clean up the mess made by the fella that wanted to take his treasured .470 to Africa, despite being a somewhat mediocre shot with the piece).

A decent modern small or medium calibre double with a scope is fine for 200m shots. To do so you regulate your scope to one barrel and shots from a single barrel are plenty accurate. I set my 9.3x74R scope up for right barrel and can shoot 3 shot 1MOA groups at 100m. Some doubles in small/medium calibers can be user regulated with relative ease, although it is a tedious and time consuming process.

I’m not suggesting I’d rather carry my double instead of my R8 for all hunting scenarios because I would not and do not. However a modern double is most definitely not a “one gig” tool and is far more universal and useful than many think.

As for the original question, I can fire two aimed shots faster with my double than with my R8 but I can fire four aimed shots faster with my R8 (when loaded 3+1).

rookhawk · Aug 28, 2019

Fastrig said:
Aren't double's only good out to about 100 yards? That was my impression, and if so, I'd stick with a bolt action for anything other the DG.

You get what you pay for!

If you buy a good one and you find its regulating load, or you handload for one that was properly regulated at the factory, MOA shots are possible. Shots nearly to the accuracy at 100-200 yards of magazine rifles is possible with a Double Rifle IF you have the proper load.

The limitation isn't always the double rifle as a weapon, its the sights and the human's eyes. That's why I suggest a quick release scope. You can always take it off for close work, but for a 150-yard poke on a buffalo, I like the idea of an illuminated 4x scope. (now when would I take such a shot with a gun that can handle it? Answer: when you show up in Africa only to find out the Buffalo are only out on the flat grass and there is NO plan to stalk in close)

In those long-distance for large bore situations, its the optics that are limiting you, not the quality of a double rifle versus an iron sighted magnum bolt action in similar caliber.

rookhawk · Aug 28, 2019

Here's a great video for all of you on this topic. The very knowledgeable Lou Hallamore, a storied Zim PH showing how he rapidly loads his 3rd and 4th shots. I've personally hunted with Lou and seen this ingenious little speed loader he has. When we got close to our prey, I saw him take it out of his pocket and he was ready to stuff 4 shots in .00001 seconds. Without a doubt, practice and the right tool can really help.

I took pictures of his "speed loader gadget" and may beg him to make some next time I speak with him. Or more specifically, I want to make a reverse casting of his in a small quantity for me and my friends.

rookhawk · Aug 28, 2019

Lou Hallamore's Speed Loader:

Red Leg · Aug 28, 2019

Fastrig said:
Aren't double's only good out to about 100 yards? That was my impression, and if so, I'd stick with a bolt action for anything other the DG.

One my doubles is a Blaser S2. It is a different sort of double rifle. It has three sets of barrels - .375 / 30-06 / and 500-416. This rifle has been to Africa and taken everything from buffalo to Oribi, at ranges from 40 - yards to nearly 250. 300 would not be a problem with the ‘06 or .375.

All six barrels shoot MOA. Combined four shot groups LxR/LxR at 100 meters are sub- 3 inches. The rifle is scoped. The 500-416 does that at 70 meters with an aim point. I sight the rifle in on the right barrel. That gives me an instant second shot inside a couple of MOA to quite a ways out there. And a first shot as accurate as any single in the same caliber. Should a follow-up be required, the scope is instantly dismountable and the rifle has wonderful open sights.

As I say it is not a traditional double which seems to aggravate some traditionalists. But it is a damned effective hunting firearm.

Double Rifles vs Bolt Actions - Speed tests

IvW

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