Taking Trophies...or only pictures?

steve ahrenberg said:

I've read through my post you "disapprove of" and cant find any part of it that could be defined as arrogant. It's obvious, or should be, that me stating "not bringing stuff home" equates leaving a rotting carcass out there. As far as trophy rooms go, a total of perhaps 4-5 people have been through it. It was a stop on a local SCI chapter "trophy room tour" that they coerced me into.

We simply disagree and you, with your response have made it antagonistic. BUT, you are obviously one of the "Respected Old Hands." I've been around on these forums and know how forum credibility works. To use your own words...I truly couldn't care less if you approve of me. And the sooner you allow your closed mind to open to all opinions, not just yours or those that you agree with, you too will become richer via others opinions and experiences.

Yes, I have been fortunate enough to have hunted this blue planet. My goal on these forums is to potentially help others not make some of the same tragic mistakes I have made, along my path. If, by one post you disapprove of, renders me guilty of the crime of having an opinion, what good are these exchanges of opinions?

I read many things on here that I strongly disagree with, but I pick my battles.

I stand by my post, unapologetic.

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Your words in bold above and your first post, "Frankly, I don't really see the point of killing something...anything just to take its picture. Why not just go stalk them up close, take their picture and let them walk? The only difference would be the kill."

Who has the closed mind? Look in the mirror. It's "hunters" like you that put us all in a bad light. Frankly, you put me in mind of a killer rather than a hunter.

“Already I was beginning to fall into the African way of thinking; That if you properly respect what you are after, and shoot it cleanly and on the animal’s terrain, if you imprison in your mind all the wonder of the day from the sky to smell to breeze to flowers – then you have not merely killed an animal. You have lent immortality to a beast you have killed because you loved him and wanted him forever so that you could always recapture the day.” – Use Enough Gun, 1952

Hogpatrol said:

Your words in bold above and your first post, "Frankly, I don't really see the point of killing something...anything just to take its picture. Why not just go stalk them up close, take their picture and let them walk? The only difference would be the kill."

Who has the closed mind? Look in the mirror. It's "hunters" like you that put us all in a bad light. Frankly, you put me in mind of a killer rather than a hunter.

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SO, you think killing an animal to simply take its picture is OK? It's not OK FOR me, the difference is, I wont judge if it's not OK for you do it. Conversely, It's nor OK for me to hold this opinion?

Hunters like me...

@steve ahrenberg - I think it is ok for you to have these opinions. I just think the tone of your original posts was a bit condescending. Maybe I am naive but I do believe in the conservation model and it is a big reason I hunt. I think the memories of my non-exportable elephant where old ladies came up and thanked me and I got to talk to the local chief is one of my best memories. If people want to skip a hunt like that because they cant bring something home, they are missing out on a lot (great hunt, good experience, helping people, and actual conservation).

I like the challenge of the hunt, of the preparation, the smells and sights. But taking pictures isnt the circle of life and it isnt steaks and it wouldn't be the same. I have some taxidermy but it makes up a very small number of my actual hunts and kills. I think it would be awesome to have a trophy room of 15 buff but for me to do that, I would have to sacrifice a lot.

LivingTheDream said:

@steve ahrenberg - I think it is ok for you to have these opinions. I just think the tone of your original posts was a bit condescending. Maybe I am naive but I do believe in the conservation model and it is a big reason I hunt. I think the memories of my non-exportable elephant where old ladies came up and thanked me and I got to talk to the local chief is one of my best memories. If people want to skip a hunt like that because they cant bring something home, they are missing out on a lot (great hunt, good experience, helping people, and actual conservation).

I like the challenge of the hunt, of the preparation, the smells and sights. But taking pictures isnt the circle of life and it isnt steaks and it wouldn't be the same. I have some taxidermy but it makes up a very small number of my actual hunts and kills. I think it would be awesome to have a trophy room of 15 buff but for me to do that, I would have to sacrifice a lot.

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Non-exportable, PAC and "own use" are all solid reason to not even consider shipping stuff home.

As to my original post being condescending, It wasn't really meant to be? I think if you were to look at my "body of work" here, that would show no trace of arrogance and only a desire to engage others by offering my experience and long list of mistakes and errors to help others not repeat.

@steve ahrenberg I have enjoyed a lot posts on this forum. This probably would have been a fun convo while sitting around the campfire, some of the nuances and intent get lost in the internet.

steve ahrenberg said:

Non-exportable, PAC and "own use" are all solid reason to not even consider shipping stuff home.

As to my original post being condescending, It wasn't really meant to be? I think if you were to look at my "body of work" here, that would show no trace of arrogance and only a desire to engage others by offering my experience and long list of mistakes and errors to help others not repeat.

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What exactly is this long list of mistakes and errors you offer to help others not repeat that you have mentioned a few times now?

IvW said:

What exactly is this long list of mistakes and errors you offer to help others not repeat that you have mentioned a few times now?

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As I stated earlier, I've been around these forums some and know how it goes. The direction I see this thread going wasn't my goal.

So...Abandon thread.

Have a great weekend fellas'

steve ahrenberg said:

SO, you think killing an animal to simply take its picture is OK? It's not OK FOR me, the difference is, I wont judge if it's not OK for you do it. Conversely, It's nor OK for me to hold this opinion?

Hunters like me...

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What is the difference to you from a mount on the wall vs the picture on the wall? Is it the fact that the skin is not in your house? I know some locals over there that actually use the skin from other hunters. Wouldnt that be better use of the skin vs sitting on your wall? Would you shoot a native animal and not get it mounted? If so whats the difference? If you say its about using the animal then I would have to ask what do you do with the rest of the hide? The bones?

I've got very little interest in having a skull mount of the animals I shoot. I shoot for the experience and what it does for the conservation of the animals, not to peg them up on my wall. If that's what you like to do then great, do it, but I don't think leaving the head in Africa is in any way wasteful or disrespectful. What matters to me is the funding we give to look after the animals and the food we provide for the villagers. However a hunter chooses to pay his respects to his quarry after that is his business and his business only.

If I put every deer I shot on the wall I'd have to sleep outside, there wouldn't be space for me in the house!

IvW said:

What exactly is this long list of mistakes and errors you offer to help others not repeat that you have mentioned a few times now?

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In there with his contribution to help maintain the site.

steve ahrenberg said:

I've read through my post you "disapprove of" and cant find any part of it that could be defined as arrogant. It's obvious, or should be, that me stating "not bringing stuff home" equates leaving a rotting carcass out there. As far as trophy rooms go, a total of perhaps 4-5 people have been through it. It was a stop on a local SCI chapter "trophy room tour" that they coerced me into.

We simply disagree and you, with your response have made it antagonistic. BUT, you are obviously one of the "Respected Old Hands." I've been around on these forums and know how forum credibility works. To use your own words...I truly couldn't care less if you approve of me. And the sooner you allow your closed mind to open to all opinions, not just yours or those that you agree with, you too will become richer via others opinions and experiences.

Yes, I have been fortunate enough to have hunted this blue planet. My goal on these forums is to potentially help others not make some of the same tragic mistakes I have made, along my path. If, by one post you disapprove of, renders me guilty of the crime of having an opinion, what good are these exchanges of opinions?

I read many things on here that I strongly disagree with, but I pick my battles.

I stand by my post, unapologetic.

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An hominem attack. Don’t see that much around here. But then you know how forums work.

I’ll try one more time. You brought up a good question that eventually everyone who hunts enough finally faces. But after getting several responses you lumped everyone who didn’t do as you do as aiding and abetting the anti’s. The difficulty with the virtue you proclaim is it takes vast resources to sustain it. The vast majority of your fellow hunters on this forum don’t have those sorts of resources. Then lumping those same folks into the ranks of the anti’s is probably not a conclusion that will set well with many. It is also a ridiculous thesis - after all it is “trophy hunting” that has become the anti’s focus. It also comes across as at least condescending. Noblesse oblige.

I would suggest imaging yourself a somewhat less well heeled a hunter. Most here don’t have the discretionary luxury to hunt over a dozen buffalo and have a home large enough to display them. The vast majority will never see Tanzania. But if they manage their resources carefully, are selective in their taxidermy, and practical in their homes they can make multiple forays abroad. They are no less virtuous as hunters because of that, and bringing home a photo to cherish the rest of their lives is certainly no less virtuous than mounting the animal for the wall.

steve ahrenberg said:

As I stated earlier, I've been around these forums some and know how it goes. The direction I see this thread going wasn't my goal.

So...Abandon thread.

Have a great weekend fellas'

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Huh....ok cheers...

https://tpwd.texas.gov/education/hu...se/responsible-and-ethical-hunting/six-stages

We are constantly moving back and forth through these stages. Ideally though we should strive to be an active member of the circle of life and spend as much time in stage 6 as possible.

Hogpatrol said:

In there with his contribution to help maintain the site.

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A bit gratuitous perhaps? Besides being off topic.

steve ahrenberg said:

As I stated earlier, I've been around these forums some and know how it goes. The direction I see this thread going wasn't my goal.

So...Abandon thread.

Have a great weekend fellas'

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Please, don't abandon the thread. I really mean that. While the thread might well have gone off in a direction you didn't originally intend, that's one of the great things about this forum. Someone gets something started - perhaps by saying something controversial, as you seem to have - and then others chime in. As much as I love oohing and aahing over someone else's trophies, it's these types of threads which really get us thinking and bring interesting and yes, contentious, issues out.

Hunters tend not to be wallflowers, and we tend to have opinions - a bunch of them - on just about every aspect of hunting. While some might be a bit more "direct" in expressing their views, there's nothing on here that many of us haven't had thrown at us from time to time. The price for putting yourself out there. But please, keep doing it!

steve ahrenberg said:

I've read through my post you "disapprove of" and cant find any part of it that could be defined as arrogant. It's obvious, or should be, that me stating "not bringing stuff home" equates leaving a rotting carcass out there. As far as trophy rooms go, a total of perhaps 4-5 people have been through it. It was a stop on a local SCI chapter "trophy room tour" that they coerced me into.

We simply disagree and you, with your response have made it antagonistic. BUT, you are obviously one of the "Respected Old Hands." I've been around on these forums and know how forum credibility works. To use your own words...I truly couldn't care less if you approve of me. And the sooner you allow your closed mind to open to all opinions, not just yours or those that you agree with, you too will become richer via others opinions and experiences.

Yes, I have been fortunate enough to have hunted this blue planet. My goal on these forums is to potentially help others not make some of the same tragic mistakes I have made, along my path. If, by one post you disapprove of, renders me guilty of the crime of having an opinion, what good are these exchanges of opinions?

I read many things on here that I strongly disagree with, but I pick my battles.

I stand by my post, unapologetic.

Click to expand...

I appreciate your candor and attempt to engage in an objective, interesting discussion. I'm in the camp that cherishes the memories of the hunt (hopefully!) and the odd trophy helps to visualize it. I wouldn't get there, but I could see it happening if I had more funds, I would become very discerning about what I paid to bring back. But I would like to get one more buffalo...

steve ahrenberg said:

Rather than hijack someone else's thread, I figured I'd ask in a new thread. Why would you (anyone) go to all the trouble to go to Africa, shoot a bunch of stuff, take its picture and simply leave the stuff there?

Isn't that by definition, reducing the value of an animals life to simply a few megapixels on a camera card?

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Because I go to hunt, period. I enjoy the hunt. I don't go to collect taxidermy although I do have a fair amount of taxidermy, meaning more than some and less than others. To me the memories are the value, not the taxidermy or the pictures. Those trinkets (yes I used that word again) are only there to help with my memories. That's it for me. That is their purpose, to help with my memories.

If I want to hunt it, it's legal, I can afford it, and it's high enough on the priority list I do it. I truly feel sorry for those who won't enjoy the experience because they can't mount it and put it on a wall. They will miss things they don't realize, which is their right to do. I just won't limit myself in that manner.

steve ahrenberg said:

But wouldn't the experience be identical by stalking and taking a photo?

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No it isn't and I seriously doubt you really believe it would be. There is a great photo safari industry that I also enjoy, but it sure as hell isn't hunting.

steve ahrenberg said:

I won't shoot an animal (overseas) that I don't "want forever." Frankly, I don't really see the point of killing something...anything just to take its picture. Why not just go stalk them up close, take their picture and let them walk? The only difference would be the kill.

We as a demographic are getting our assess handed to us right now. If the "organized anti's" ever get wind of this, we're even more screwed than we are now.

Not that bringing trophies home and getting them mounted makes them happy, but at least we can claim full use and responsibility of the entire process.

Its more of a philosophical discussion than anything else.

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Many of the reply's from others seemed very viable philosophically to me, Many view point's and not necessarily any of them wrong.
I take my pleasure from the hunt ,the experience, everything involved. Pic's , mounts all reminders of good memories!

steve ahrenberg said:

I won't shoot an animal (overseas) that I don't "want forever." Frankly, I don't really see the point of killing something...anything just to take its picture. Why not just go stalk them up close, take their picture and let them walk? The only difference would be the kill.

We as a demographic are getting our assess handed to us right now. If the "organized anti's" ever get wind of this, we're even more screwed than we are now.

Not that bringing trophies home and getting them mounted makes them happy, but at least we can claim full use and responsibility of the entire process.

Its more of a philosophical discussion than anything else.

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You may believe that taxidermy shows more responsibility, that is your phylosophy. But the anti's don't see it the same.
Here's a review a taxidermist has on Facebook from one:

"It is not your "skill" I judge, but your profession. Bad enough, all these wonderful animal had to die for some big-buck recreational killer's idea of a "happy snap" and holiday memento ... But to not even accord these animals their dignity in death ... To stuff them and display them ... That's morbid and sick. (( "


From my experience my explanations of how and where the meat goes and even better, picture proof of the small amount of leftovers from the butchering has won over a lot of the people who have asked me about my African trips. Most people care very little whether it ended up on my wall.