South Africa emigration

Hogpatrol

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I believe the political climate has a lot to do with this. It appears that the blacks just don't have what it takes to successfully govern a country. RSA, among other African nations, has become quite unstable of late with not much indication of improvement. Maybe apartheid was not such a bad situation.
 
yes, I,m afraid RSA is in a nose dive. and its a shame as it has such great potional to be a truly grate country if they can get their act together. but the something for nothing crowd gets in its way along with government corruption.
 
I believe the political climate has a lot to do with this. It appears that the blacks just don't have what it takes to successfully govern a country. RSA, among other African nations, has become quite unstable of late with not much indication of improvement. Maybe apartheid was not such a bad situation.
I dont think it really matters .they keep letting china in and its only a matter of time .they think it was bad because of whites they have no clue.
 
Perhaps Joberg and Baltimore can become sister cities and share management expertise. .........But sadly, the "something for nothing" politicians are here in the USA too. As mismanagement and graft choke economies, they look to those successful to steal from. ........It worked a little in the past, but today wealth is mobile, and the wealthy just leave. They are fleeing New Jersey, and they will flee RSA......good luck to us all..................FWB
 
this alone would make me realy think about leaving RSA, you just will never know who is going to kill you in the dead of night. I felt safer in the bush as I was armed, then in any cities with nothing but a small pocket knife. in my state I carry one of these most times when out and about.

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With RSA experiencing emigration, it's hard to imagine any white farmers returning to Zimbabwe.
 
I believe the political climate has a lot to do with this. It appears that the blacks just don't have what it takes to successfully govern a country. RSA, among other African nations, has become quite unstable of late with not much indication of improvement. Maybe apartheid was not such a bad situation.

I'm not sure where to start with these statements. I will say, with all due respect, that they are offensive to a great number of people. Perhaps I have misunderstood you, in which case I apologize. But if I have not, then the statements need to be addressed.

Regarding ability to govern, the statement is demonstrably false. There are, and have also been, plenty of countries governed by blacks, which have been well-governed. There are plenty of white and brown people who have shown themselves entirely unfit to govern, yet we don't condemn entire races.

With respect to apartheid, I'd be curious how you can justify a situation where the majority of the population of a country are not only legally disenfranchised, but are restricted and controlled in their movements, occupations and day-to-day existence. Apart from the sheer disregard for the most basic and universally accepted concepts of basic human rights, it should be pretty clear that such a situation is not only unchristian, it is both morally repugnant and more practically, completely unsustainable.

There are plenty of valid reasons to take issue with government policies in South Africa. Perhaps if we focussed on those, we might go some way to finding a solution to South African emigration. I don't think that suggesting we go back to white minority rule would do anything to end emigration or increase property values.
 
I was in RSA years ago. I heard Pres Mbeki speak. He was addressing the 1000% rise in violence. "Did Apartheid damage us so badly, that we became violent?" He asked. And so it has been. The continued blaming of someone else for Africa's problems. Most South Africans were not alive during Apartheid. Look at the median age and trans-border migration numbers.
So good to hear that there "are plenty of countries.......well-governed". Transparency International, The Global Corruption Barometer, and the Corruption Perception Index all disagree with you. I wasn't the one that offended you Hank 2211, but I must say that until Africa accepts responsibility for itself, there will be no progress. Black Africans should be offended...by their governments...they deserve better. Your statement is well written and well meaning. I wish all of Africa's peoples, and RSA especially, great good fortune. But acknowledging the dysfunctional governments is the first step. ....................FWB
 

The article suggests that the relative pricing for properties in RSA is attractive compared to many cites around the world such as Berlin. The writer asserts that the rise in property sales is due to people selling investment properties but offers no real proof.
I couldn’t see myself buying anything but a hunt in South Africa due to the lack stability of the countries government and infrastructure!
 
I was in RSA years ago. I heard Pres Mbeki speak. He was addressing the 1000% rise in violence. "Did Apartheid damage us so badly, that we became violent?" He asked. And so it has been. The continued blaming of someone else for Africa's problems. Most South Africans were not alive during Apartheid. Look at the median age and trans-border migration numbers.
So good to hear that there "are plenty of countries.......well-governed". Transparency International, The Global Corruption Barometer, and the Corruption Perception Index all disagree with you. I wasn't the one that offended you Hank 2211, but I must say that until Africa accepts responsibility for itself, there will be no progress. Black Africans should be offended...by their governments...they deserve better. Your statement is well written and well meaning. I wish all of Africa's peoples, and RSA especially, great good fortune. But acknowledging the dysfunctional governments is the first step. ....................FWB

@flatwater bill, I want to be clear. I never said that African countries weren't by and large corrupt, nor that Africans generally were well served by their governments. I think the opposite is true and I agree that the evidence supports that conclusion. It was suggested that the cause of this problem was skin colour and that blacks weren't capable of governing themselves. I believe the symptoms or effects are real, but I disagree about the cause. None of the NGOs you mention ascribe the cause of the problems they outline as black-led governments. Corruption wasn't invented by blacks, nor is it confined to blacks. Nor are all blacks corrupt, whether in government or outside of it. If examples are needed, I think that most reasonable people would agree that while not perfect (is any?), the governments of both Namibia and Botswana are pretty decent. I pick these two only because they are in the immediate vicinity of South Africa. There are many others I could pick.

All Africans, black, white and every shade in between, should be offended by what passes for government in much of the continent. Frankly, I, as a Canadian, an offended at what passes for government in my country, and our leaders are about as white as they come. And yes, we need to acknowledge the issues we have with governments as a first step, and we need to stop excusing our own governments because they aren't the worst offenders.
 
I agree with you. Mostly. Except for "there are many others I could pick" . That statement is false. In fact, Botswana is historically the only country in the sub- Sahara that is not listed as absolutely rife with mismanagement and corruption. And it is sinking. I could cite many examples, but this is a hunting website. You are totally correct that none of the NGO's correlate color and corruption. To do so would not only be wrong, it would be illegal, and would result in defunding. African countries are mismanaged and corrupt, ( with rare few examples to the contrary) I don't profess to know the reasons. It impacts the citizens tremendously, steals their future, but it impact us hunters too. We must worry about bribes, instability, Govt collapse, Air services disruptions, theft and violence. Despite that.............Africa remains one of the best places on Earth to go hunting (Read AH carefully before planning such a trip)..........Best of luck to all Africans, Black and White, with this difficult and multifaceted problem.....FWB
 
@Hank2211, with all due respect and by your own admission, you aren't South African and you don't live here. From an economic stand, SA did better under Apartheid rule. Our murder rate is through the roof (truly, it's atrocious) and basic human rights are ignored now just as they were then, be it a little less obviously.

The poor are still marginalized, funds (taxes etc) are still stolen at a disgusting rate and a specific racial group is being discriminated against.

Despite what the international community wish to believe, the "Rainbow Nation" doesn't exist. It has the capacity to, don't get me wrong, but politics does an outstanding job of stopping it.

As a white South African your options regarding bursaries, varsity placement, loans, grants, JOBS, shares and so on are limited. It's not blatantly stated that they (white south africans) aren't allowed in certain areas, but you probably won't make it out alive if you do decide to venture into such places.

Most "african" tribes are built on a collective rather than individual "dogma", meaning there is a higher affinity to communistic tendencies. In a capitalistic world, this is not a positive. Couple that with the fact that the ANC have nurtured an attitude of entitled "something for nothing" among the vast majority of the population and the ease with which the majority like to blame "whites" for every issue in the country and you have a recipe for disaster.

White South Africans are South African enough to tax outrageously, but not South African enough to be treated as equals or even people worthy of property rights.

The issue isn't colour, it's culture. Sadly, I don't know many black Zulus or Xhosas etc. Its not Norwegians who are constantly trying to break our property and who shoot at my neighbors. Believe me, I've checked.

South Africa was not better off under Apartheid rule, but don't think it's any better now. The poor are still ignored and exploited, there is still racial discrimination and money still sticks with the fat cats, just not the same fat cats. The country has not learnt its lesson.

I don't believe in original sin, I don't believe in paying for the sins of the father.

While your statements are, theoretically, valid. You have (in my opinion) shown severe ignorance regarding the South African situation. All politicians are symptoms of the overriding culture and community. While they are the immediate issue, the causal problem is far greater and lies with the dominating culture and population.
 
I am not a expert on Africa,s problems by a long shot, but I have also traveled there six times to hunt and I have seen many examples of plain corruption and my longest stay was a month, with most being two to three weeks and traveled from joberg-durban-cape and stayed with several different African families and even had several of them come here to the states to visit. I have made many friends there and was treated as good in Africa as any where in the world I have traveled and hunted. when the government changed in the 90,s from white to black the common African,s plight didn,t get better, they only changed one group of corrupt politions for another.
 
Interesting thread. One of my best friends is a Burundian refugee. We were having a beer after a long hot day in Togo and got onto the subject of African politics. He summed it up pretty succinctly regarding the Burundian president, ‘it doesn’t seem to matter how good a man comes to power in Africa, they all in time, become evil and corrupt.’ After you’ve spent as much time in 3rd world slums as I have, you become somewhat cynical about the ability of any governing body in Africa looking to the welfare of their citizens.

I do take offense at the inference that it is a black or white issue. I have enough first hand experience to know that is absolutely not the case. It is a system and character issue.
 
@Hank2211, with all due respect and by your own admission, you aren't South African and you don't live here. From an economic stand, SA did better under Apartheid rule. Our murder rate is through the roof (truly, it's atrocious) and basic human rights are ignored now just as they were then, be it a little less obviously.

The poor are still marginalized, funds (taxes etc) are still stolen at a disgusting rate and a specific racial group is being discriminated against.

Despite what the international community wish to believe, the "Rainbow Nation" doesn't exist. It has the capacity to, don't get me wrong, but politics does an outstanding job of stopping it.

As a white South African your options regarding bursaries, varsity placement, loans, grants, JOBS, shares and so on are limited. It's not blatantly stated that they (white south africans) aren't allowed in certain areas, but you probably won't make it out alive if you do decide to venture into such places.

Most "african" tribes are built on a collective rather than individual "dogma", meaning there is a higher affinity to communistic tendencies. In a capitalistic world, this is not a positive. Couple that with the fact that the ANC have nurtured an attitude of entitled "something for nothing" among the vast majority of the population and the ease with which the majority like to blame "whites" for every issue in the country and you have a recipe for disaster.

White South Africans are South African enough to tax outrageously, but not South African enough to be treated as equals or even people worthy of property rights.

The issue isn't colour, it's culture. Sadly, I don't know many black Zulus or Xhosas etc. Its not Norwegians who are constantly trying to break our property and who shoot at my neighbors. Believe me, I've checked.

South Africa was not better off under Apartheid rule, but don't think it's any better now. The poor are still ignored and exploited, there is still racial discrimination and money still sticks with the fat cats, just not the same fat cats. The country has not learnt its lesson.

I don't believe in original sin, I don't believe in paying for the sins of the father.

While your statements are, theoretically, valid. You have (in my opinion) shown severe ignorance regarding the South African situation. All politicians are symptoms of the overriding culture and community. While they are the immediate issue, the causal problem is far greater and lies with the dominating culture and population.

Wow.

I've looked back at my two posts here and the only reference to South African I've made is this: "There are plenty of valid reasons to take issue with government policies in South Africa." From your post, I assume you'd agree with that. And as far as apartheid is concerned, I said it was wrong. I remain of that opinion. I have never commented on the current economic situation in South Africa, nor on the crime situation. Certainly, I never said anything about the lifestyle enjoyed - or not - by white South Africans.

I note two of your comments. Firstly, you state "the issue isn't colour, it's culture." That's been my point from the beginning. Secondly, you say: "South Africa was not better off under Apartheid rule, but don't think it's any better now. The poor are still ignored and exploited, there is still racial discrimination and money still sticks with the fat cats, just not the same fat cats. The country has not learnt its lesson." I'd say we are in violent agreement.

With respect to South Africa, since that's where you're talking about, I think it's a beautiful country, and I have generally found the people there to be generally hardworking, very interesting and extremely hospitable. While South Africa has great hunting, that's a parochial concern of mine. On a more macro plane, it has everything a country needs to be successful except for good government.
 
. Its not Norwegians who are constantly trying to break our property and who shoot at my neighbors.


Unfortunately, Norway has supported ANC with found since the 50s. The official story is that this has been a great success.
And our prime minister did give you the solution on how to stop rape and abuse of underage girls when she visited SA some months ago. You need to teach the girls to say "no".

I didn't vote for that stupid woman..
 
Regarding ANCs ability to govern, the rand is now worth about 10% of what it was in 1994...go figure..

I meet educated white south africans who emigrated to Norway and work in our domestic oil industry...great people BTW....but a loss for SA..

They simply state that they see no future for themselves or their kids in SA...sad..
 

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