Deer Hunting with .223??

Nothing wrong with the .270. It was the favorite of Jack Oconnor for good reason. 2 of my longest stots were made with one. 569yds on a mountain goat and 507 on an Elk. The 140gr XBT entered the front of the chest of the elk 1/4ing sharply and went end for end shattering his femur. Both shots on the goat were pass throughs on the ribs. The .223 however is not a .270, not even close. IMO it is just too marginal for my taste and I am in no way a Macho big bore pusher. Most of my hunting is done with my .257 WBY with a nice cushy recoil pad that has such a mild kick any woman or child could shoot it, did I mention of the standard calibers only the 30-378 matches its long range trajectory. Plenty of punch can come in a small package, recognizing that all pea shooters are not created equal is important.
I agree. I am a former .270 hater converted to a .270 lover. I got fed too many stories by family members and internet people that it wasn't even a good deer cartridge. My dad convinced me that it probably was perfect for me considering my age, and I haven't looked back since.

Now, back to the .223. I used to know a person who shot multiple deer with the .222 Remingon and he said it was basically perfect. He switched from the .30-06 to the .222 he liked it that much. I personally wouldn't make a habit out of hunting big bucks with the .223, but if I just needed to fill a doe tag I wouldn't hesitate.
 
So Trigger Creep you would not put it on the line for a big buck with a .223 but,you would risk wounding or losing a doe pretty much summs it it up for me.
 
So Trigger Creep you would not put it on the line for a big buck with a .223 but,you would risk wounding or losing a doe pretty much summs it it up for me.
NO, Doe are SMALLER than Buck! A doe is, in my area, at least 50 lb's (often 75 lb's) lighter than a buck. Bucks have more fat, thicker muscles, and MUCH, MUCH thicker neck fat. Doe aren't as hard too kill, thereby making it more ethical to hunt them with smaller calibers.

Don't be mistaken, my two deer guns right now are a .270 with 150 grain Nosler B-tips, and a .30-06 with 170 grain flatnoses (loaded to about 2,550, its a mild deer/bear load and it's incredibly accurate). I ain't undergunned when I go deer hunting.
 
My first deer I killed with my m4 and ra556b (fbi loading, 64gr bonded nosler). It was a 25 yard shot from a stand. 110# or so doe. The bullet impacted right where I wanted, just behind the shoulder. At impact the deer hunched, then took off. I waited until I heard it stop running into trees down the hill and then went to where I hit it. I saw bright red blood, hair, and a small amount of tissue. I followed the deer down the hill and found it stone dead 75 yards from point of impact, blood frothing from the snout and body cavity. Upon dressing, I noted 3 broken ribs on entry, the lungs were severely injured (hole through them surrounded by a few inches of soup all around), and the apex of the heart was pierced as well as had striations presumably from over pressure in the ventricles, as the expanded bullet stroke the apex. I then noted the exit revealing 2 to 3 more broken ribs, along with a similarly damaged lung just proximal.

I was very pleased with this, but am contemplating the 55ge 5.56 gmx, or the 75gr gold dot, for this year's deer. Just thought I'd share my experience.
 
I live on and operate a ranch. I've killed many deer with a .223. Mostly using hollow points. They do some damage and put Texas white tails down easily. That said a 6.5 Creedmore will really put them down!
Keep in mind there is a big difference between culling does and hunting the buck of your dreams. If you are concerned then use more gun!
Regards,
Philip
 
In UK you can use the .223 on Chinese Water Deer, Muntjac and Roe in Scotland so no "Big Deer". Used .223 with some success on Muntjac before. (56gr ballistic tip).

Be interesting to try some of the 60-65gr soft point options
 
I don't disagree that it can be done. My father took a number of deer in the northern Adirondacks in his youth with a .222 loaded with 50 grain soft points. The issue is whether the person behind the gun has the discipline to do it. I am not talking bullet placement here... one of the most annoying quotes on the internet "W.D.M. Bell killed over 1100 elephants with a .256 MS." Drives me nuts. What they don't quote is how many he lost. Sure bullet placement is going to be important and I don't doubt that there are .224 bullets that can break a shoulder bone and maintain a straight course. But a bullet that light (<70 grains) could be deflected by a rib or shoulder or brisket, etc and end up in the paunch or just lightly perforating a lung leading to slow agonizing death. Headshots are lethal with anything but it is a tiny VERY mobile and unpredicatble target. I personally would never do them. There are too many armchair commandos that will tell you "just shoot for the head". I have seen at least 3 deer harvested hours or even days after a failed head shot and their lower jaw was hanging down held on by a string or the front of their nose was blown off. If they weren't killed by hunters, they would certainly have starved to death. If a headshot is all that I am offered, I pass on it and wait to see if a better shot is presented. If it isn't, the deer walks and I wait for another. 90% of the fun is being outdoors and testing your woods skill against the animal's anyways.(y)

This is from my personal experience and take it for what it is worth.... Does a person have the discipline to wait for a broadside shot within 200 yards and the ability to put a well constructed bullet right behind or just over the front leg? If that is the case, then go for it! People have to be honest with themselves though. I personally prefer the lightly quartering towards shot because it takes out a shoulder, the heart, both lungs and drops them on the spot most of the time. If you mess it up there is a lot of leeway and it still is going to shock them most likely giving you time for a follow up shot. I use a 6.5x55 at minimum and since the next step up I have is a .375 H&H, I use it sometimes too. The bear in my profile pic was shot with a 300 grain RNSP @2550fps round through the shoulder and out the diaphram. Dropped the bear like a ton of bricks. I am not saying you NEED a .375. It works though... I would say serious deer rifles start at 6mm and bullet weights over 90 grains. .25, 6.5mm, .270 and 7mm's don't kick that much harder and have power to spare for deer. If a hunter is a young or recoil shy person, 6x45 is a great cartridge throwing a 100 grain .243 bullet at about 2450fps. I have a .223 bolt gun but it is reserved for varmints and coyote. I have better tools that give me more shot opportunities and a lot of insurance.

Shooting at live animals is a betting game. I don't care how good of a shot someone thinks they are, if they hunt enough, They WILL screw up a shot eventually and it is really best if your rifle stacks the deck in your favor, rather than betting that a marginal round will do exactly what you hope it will. .223 is a surgeons rifle. I am not a rifle surgeon, so I stack the deck in my favor.

Just my two cents and none of it was intended to offend those who use a .223 for deer. If it works for you and you are successful with it, all the power to you. I personally just don't consider it a "deer rifle."

this year, I may even give the .416 Ruger a workout on deer.:P Elmer Fudd:
 
I don't disagree that it can be done. My father took a number of deer in the northern Adirondacks in his youth with a .222 loaded with 50 grain soft points. The issue is whether the person behind the gun has the discipline to do it. I am not talking bullet placement here... one of the most annoying quotes on the internet "W.D.M. Bell killed over 1100 elephants with a .256 MS." Drives me nuts. What they don't quote is how many he lost. Sure bullet placement is going to be important and I don't doubt that there are .224 bullets that can break a shoulder bone and maintain a straight course. But a bullet that light (<70 grains) could be deflected by a rib or shoulder or brisket, etc and end up in the paunch or just lightly perforating a lung leading to slow agonizing death. Headshots are lethal with anything but it is a tiny VERY mobile and unpredicatble target. I personally would never do them. There are too many armchair commandos that will tell you "just shoot for the head". I have seen at least 3 deer harvested hours or even days after a failed head shot and their lower jaw was hanging down held on by a string or the front of their nose was blown off. If they weren't killed by hunters, they would certainly have starved to death. If a headshot is all that I am offered, I pass on it and wait to see if a better shot is presented. If it isn't, the deer walks and I wait for another. 90% of the fun is being outdoors and testing your woods skill against the animal's anyways.(y)

This is from my personal experience and take it for what it is worth.... Does a person have the discipline to wait for a broadside shot within 200 yards and the ability to put a well constructed bullet right behind or just over the front leg? If that is the case, then go for it! People have to be honest with themselves though. I personally prefer the lightly quartering towards shot because it takes out a shoulder, the heart, both lungs and drops them on the spot most of the time. If you mess it up there is a lot of leeway and it still is going to shock them most likely giving you time for a follow up shot. I use a 6.5x55 at minimum and since the next step up I have is a .375 H&H, I use it sometimes too. The bear in my profile pic was shot with a 300 grain RNSP @2550fps round through the shoulder and out the diaphram. Dropped the bear like a ton of bricks. I am not saying you NEED a .375. It works though... I would say serious deer rifles start at 6mm and bullet weights over 90 grains. .25, 6.5mm, .270 and 7mm's don't kick that much harder and have power to spare for deer. If a hunter is a young or recoil shy person, 6x45 is a great cartridge throwing a 100 grain .243 bullet at about 2450fps. I have a .223 bolt gun but it is reserved for varmints and coyote. I have better tools that give me more shot opportunities and a lot of insurance.

Shooting at live animals is a betting game. I don't care how good of a shot someone thinks they are, if they hunt enough, They WILL screw up a shot eventually and it is really best if your rifle stacks the deck in your favor, rather than betting that a marginal round will do exactly what you hope it will. .223 is a surgeons rifle. I am not a rifle surgeon, so I stack the deck in my favor.

Just my two cents and none of it was intended to offend those who use a .223 for deer. If it works for you and you are successful with it, all the power to you. I personally just don't consider it a "deer rifle."

this year, I may even give the .416 Ruger a workout on deer.:P Elmer Fudd:

No offense taken, at all. Here is an example of the precision I demand from myself. I was sitting, shooting over a sandbag, every similar to the position I will be in from the stand, with similar stability. This is a 100 yard cold, clean bore "first shot of the day". Because that's what will count when hunting.

14344680_838499065591_6323369533183573217_n.jpg


The ammunition used, which I will use for deer this year, is the 75gr Speer LE Gold Dot loading. Typical performance in gel is 16-20 inches of penetration with 0.55-0.7" of expansion, and typically significant weight retention. The agencies using it have been very pleased with it so far. I suspect it will work well on a deer, also. Here are a few I recovered from water jugs (they go through 4 and sometimes 5 at 0-100 yards, and look very similar near point blank and at 100).

12250060_782362344031_7753980492308497177_n.jpg


Here is a picture of the rifle:

244pt3t.jpg
 

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No offense taken, at all. Here is an example of the precision I demand from myself. I was sitting, shooting over a sandbag, every similar to the position I will be in from the stand, with similar stability. This is a 100 yard cold, clean bore "first shot of the day". Because that's what will count when hunting.

14344680_838499065591_6323369533183573217_n.jpg


The ammunition used, which I will use for deer this year, is the 75gr Speer LE Gold Dot loading. Typical performance in gel is 16-20 inches of penetration with 0.55-0.7" of expansion, and typically significant weight retention. The agencies using it have been very pleased with it so far. I suspect it will work well on a deer, also. Here are a few I recovered from water jugs (they go through 4 and sometimes 5 at 0-100 yards, and look very similar near point blank and at 100).

12250060_782362344031_7753980492308497177_n.jpg


Here is a picture of the rifle:

244pt3t.jpg
Those look like they would do the job! I just personally like to know that I can shoot deer from almost any reasonable angle and still be assured that my equipment has the capcity to down the deer quickly and humanely, even if my bullet is an inch or two from exactly where I wanted it. Then I feel comfortable that I have done everything I can to not leave wounded and dying deer throughout the Adirondack Park. I am glad the .223 works for you! I just have this lingering fear in the back of my mind when an animal steps in front of me saying "DON'T WOUND IT!" because of that, I use more gun than I probably need. I won't lie and I am not too big a man to admit that I have wounded deer. Mostly in my younger days and let me tell you, I felt like crap after tracking for several hours and no deer. So I do everything I can to make it short and sweet for the animal and myself so that the real time consuming work can begin (dragging, skinning and butchering.)
 
Those look like they would do the job! I just personally like to know that I can shoot deer from almost any reasonable angle and still be assured that my equipment has the capcity to down the deer quickly and humanely, even if my bullet is an inch or two from exactly where I wanted it. Then I feel comfortable that I have done everything I can to not leave wounded and dying deer throughout the Adirondack Park. I am glad the .223 works for you! I just have this lingering fear in the back of my mind when an animal steps in front of me saying "DON'T WOUND IT!" because of that, I use more gun than I probably need. I won't lie and I am not too big a man to admit that I have wounded deer. Mostly in my younger days and let me tell you, I felt like crap after tracking for several hours and no deer. So I do everything I can to make it short and sweet for the animal and myself so that the real time consuming work can begin (dragging, skinning and butchering.)

I feel comfortable taking anything but a Texas Heartshot with the .223. The ammo I use and have used is excellent, and I can put it where it needs to go with a confidence of +-2" in field conditions out to 100 yards, which is about as far as I can see where I am hunting due to terrain.

That said, if what you are doing is ethically killing game, I can't make myself argue with you about it. That IS the overreaching goal.
 
I don't disagree that it can be done. My father took a number of deer in the northern Adirondacks in his youth with a .222 loaded with 50 grain soft points. The issue is whether the person behind the gun has the discipline to do it. I am not talking bullet placement here... one of the most annoying quotes on the internet "W.D.M. Bell killed over 1100 elephants with a .256 MS." Drives me nuts. What they don't quote is how many he lost.

I don't care how good of a shot someone thinks they are, if they hunt enough, They WILL screw up a shot eventually and it is really best if your rifle stacks the deck in your favor, rather than betting that a marginal round will do exactly what you hope it will. .223 is a surgeons rifle. I am not a rifle surgeon, so I stack the deck in my favor.

Just my two cents and none of it was intended to offend those who use a .223 for deer. If it works for you and you are successful with it, all the power to you. I personally just don't consider it a "deer rifle."

ChrisG,

I am +1 with you on this "vermin calibers" for deer hunting thing.

A few years ago, I was blessed to have done some culling for a safari company, Limpopo District, South Africa.
Drought conditions, many animal's health sadly deteriorating plus, we also were dispatching any that were found injured, in poacher's snares.
The owner was recovering from neck surgery, to repair multiple damaged discs and so, had to be very cautious of recoil until completely mended.
So he used a Sako .222 / 50 gr bullets.
This man is an exceptional rifle shot, by anyone's standards.
Most times, each animal he brained with the .222 dropped very dead to the shot.

However, one wildebeest was not struck between the eyes as intended (I suspect it moved its head at the moment of ignition).
The tiny soft point entered, just under the horn boss, a bit off center.
The animal bolted away, as if in The Kentucky Derby.
Through some brilliant work by the expert tracker, we located it in a thorn thicket and I dispatched it with a 220 grain round nose soft (Hornady), from the Brno 600 I was using.

I know a wildebeest is no doubt, very much tougher than our average N. American deer might be and that, a .222 / 50 grain is tad less than the .223 / 70 grain is but, both cartridges are poor choices for deer hunting IMO, especially considering the wide spread availability of many suitable calibers today.

Furthermore, I am with you on the 6.5x55 and could never figure out why the manufacturers pushed the .243 as their flagship youth rifle cartridge instead.
Certainly, a child would not be bruised by what little recoil the typical USA under-loaded 6.5x55 / 140 grain generates.
But what do I know (some folks say I don't know much at all).

Again we agree on the small bore fans forever saying Bell bagged over a thousand elephants with small bore rifles, such as the 7x57, the 6.5 MS and such likes (thereby implying that, large bore rifles for large animals are not necessary).
As you said, no mention of wounded elephants, in the books Bell wrote about himself.
Furthermore, when pub conversations warrant it, I take comfort in retorting that (according to Rigby's records), Bell had been delivered not one but TWO large bore Mausers, during his ivory-market hunting years, both in .416 Rigby caliber.......Hmmmm.

These totally appropriate for elephant, large bore rifles were delivered to Bell, with a thousand rounds each, of Rigby's 410 grain "solid" bullet live ammunition, sealed in "tropical tins" ........Hmmmm.
This is not to mention that Bell also brought on his ivory expeditions, a .450 NE, ejector double ......Hmmmm.
Bell barely even mentions the above equipment in his self promoting books .......Hmmmm.

Blah, blah, blah, out,
Velo Dog.
 
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I am not a fan of headshots for that very reason.

That said, I am failing to see how over 1/2" expansion and just shy of 2 feet of penetration in gel (usually equates to more in an animal because some of that is dead space/softer than the muscle gel simulates.) is not sufficient for a White Tail, given even half-way reasonable shot placement.
 
Not sure how my above, rambling reply to ChrisG's post, ended up contained within the yellow highlighted box.
My best guess is that computers hate me, and I mean they hate me personally.
 
Not sure how my above, rambling reply to ChrisG's post, ended up contained within the yellow highlighted box.
My best guess is that computers hate me, and I mean they hate me personally.
Oh they do..... they do..... Skynet is coming my friend.... bwahahaHAHAHAHAHA!!!! :cautious:
 
Yes you can..... as I have taken several with .223 & .22-250. However, there are so many better choices. Very little room for error & you just wound the animal. Consider .243, 6.5, .25.06 or 7mm-08 if recoil is a concern.
 
I am not a fan of headshots for that very reason.

That said, I am failing to see how over 1/2" expansion and just shy of 2 feet of penetration in gel (usually equates to more in an animal because some of that is dead space/softer than the muscle gel simulates.) is not sufficient for a White Tail, given even half-way reasonable shot placement.

Because you mortally hit/wound a deer.... doesn't guarantee finding it. Why risk losing one!?!?! Deer need shock... "knock down"... to secure a ethical kill. Where there is so much energy that it not only creates massive wound channel, but puts it down quickly. Otherwise... may go 500 yards into the bush only to be found by coyotes.
 
I think I'm gonna go start a .45/70 for elephant/buffalo thread...:A Stirring:
 
I think I'm gonna go start a .45/70 for elephant/buffalo thread...:A Stirring:


Or perhaps; "This Morning I Shot an Elephant In My Pajamas".
How he got into my pajamas I'll never know.
(Groucho Marx - 1930 something?)
 
You're giving away your age Dog.
 
Because you mortally hit/wound a deer.... doesn't guarantee finding it. Why risk losing one!?!?! Deer need shock... "knock down"... to secure a ethical kill. Where there is so much energy that it not only creates massive wound channel, but puts it down quickly. Otherwise... may go 500 yards into the bush only to be found by coyotes.

When you destroy the heart and lungs, you're not likely to have something travel 500 yards. Further, the .30-30 has been used for years on deer. It doesn't have a massive TSC.
 

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Because of some clients having to move their dates I have 2 prime time slots open if anyone is interested to do a hunt
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dogcat1 wrote on skydiver386's profile.
I would be interested in it if you pass. Please send me the info on the gun shop if you do not buy it. I have the needed ammo and brass.
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Hi Lance hope you well. The 10.75 x 68 did you purchase it in the end ? if so are you prepared to part with it ? rgs Francois
 
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