Winchester M70 Safari vs Sako Brown Bear in 416

Thanks for everyones’ opinions. As I’ve said at the beginning of the post this was a purely hypothetical question as I have no need for another rifle. But as you are all so encouraging (and I’m a weak man) I am now a proud owner of Wincher M70 in 416 Rem Mag.

You can't go wrong with that. Now we need to see how it shoots. When are you planning on taking it to the range? Toby458 can probably give you some of his pet loads.

Beautiful rifle and I think you will be very happy with the 416RM.
Looks like it scared those foxes right out of their skins!

BeeMaa said:

Beautiful rifle and I think you will be very happy with the 416RM.
Looks like it scared those foxes right out of their skins!

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It did that!

Shootist43 said:

You can't go wrong with that. Now we need to see how it shoots. When are you planning on taking it to the range? Toby458 can probably give you some of his pet loads.

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Hopefully in the next day or two. I bought some Hornady ammo that they had in stock. As this was not a planned purchase I now have to get all the reloading stuff for it. I’ll be surprised if any shops here have 416 Rem dies in stock so I’ll most likely have to order it in, .4 cals are not common in Poland. I know nothing about reloading for this cartridge, what sort of powders does one use for it? Seems to be quite a decent bullet selection out there. I reckon 300 or 350gr TSX mighty actually be usable on Boar here, while obviously it would be an overkill, using a stout, non fragmenting bullet to minimise meat damage why not?

My Winchester M70 Safari 416RM has performed excellently from day one. Straight out of the box they are ready to be taken on a hunt. Not that I did that, of course.
I stripped my down to take a closer "look" at it with a gunsmith friend of mine. We were both surprised to see the quality and workmanship from a mass produced factory rifle!
It feeds any type of cartridge from the magazine into the chamber without any problems. Even the unpointed Woodleigh Hydro's are no problem. To be critical the only problem I've had was after 12 months of shooting it in both Big Game Rifle target competitions, hunting and mostly load development, the factory supplied Pachmayer recoil pad de-laminated. That is the rubber came away from the internal steel backing. I fitted a new Pachmayer 1" decelerator pad and was reimbursed the cost by Winchester Australia when they were notified by email with a few pictures to ad some weight to my claim.
The only thing I don't like about the M70 is the MOA trigger when being used in target competition shooting, it's too heavy BUT in a hunt it's no problem.

Opposite Pole said:

Hopefully in the next day or two. I bought some Hornady ammo that they had in stock. As this was not a planned purchase I now have to get all the reloading stuff for it. I’ll be surprised if any shops here have 416 Rem dies in stock so I’ll most likely have to order it in, .4 cals are not common in Poland. I know nothing about reloading for this cartridge, what sort of powders does one use for it? Seems to be quite a decent bullet selection out there. I reckon 300 or 350gr TSX mighty actually be usable on Boar here, while obviously it would be an overkill, using a stout, non fragmenting bullet to minimise meat damage why not?

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I am not sure about what is available in Poland now, after all it was 2005 since I was last there. The best performance in my 416RM has come from the medium burning rate range. Powders like or equivalent to AR 2208/ Varget maybe even Norma 202?
In fact the best accuracy group shot in my Winchester M70 416 RM has been with the Barnes 300gn projectile pushed by 84gn of AR2208. I would consider this as a maximum load but not showing any signs of pressure like sticky extraction and flattened primers.

I’ve got a good amount of Varget left still so this would be the way to go I guess. Poland has changed a fair bit since 2005 and mostly for the better, though it’s not as chrap as it used to be.

Opposite Pole said:

though it’s not as chrap as it used to be.

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I meant cheap

Went to the copper station today to register the rifle and on the way home stopped at an indoor range to have a go. The rifle shot quite well but I'm not too sure about the weight. I suppose it'd be great on a hunt if you have to carry it all day and don't notice the recoil but for range work I'd prefer for it to be heavier. Another thing is the recoil pad, mine has a very soft Pachmayer one that will definitely be going. It's way too soft and pressing it hard into the shoulder I pretty much compress it all the way to the wood so it doesn't do too much when the trigger is pulled. The trigger by the way is not bad, it's the MOA version and there's no creep or overtravel but it is a little heavy for my likening, not drastically though so I'm not sure if I'll be doing anything to it, I'm guessing not. It certainly is good enough to hunt with and this is not a benchrest rifle after all. Thirdly the sights. Held out in bright light they are a rather accurate set up BUT having a go at an indoor range exposed their weakness in poor light At this range the targets are well lit but the stands not so much, and the sights were pretty hard to see, so for work in thicker foliage I'm not sure about them. There were a couple of Police officers at the range next to me shooting pistols and they were complaining about the light as well. They got curious as to what I was shooting that was making such a powerful boom, I offered for them to have a go but there were no takers. I guess they are more used to 223's and 9x19 firearms here. It's early days and I've only fired 9 rounds through it so it's too early to form any proper opinions but so far so good and while not perfect the rifle seems to be certainly hunt ready out of the box. Below is my first target, 3x3 rounds, 50m off hand 400gr Hornady DGX.

Opposite Pole said:

I’ve got a good amount of Varget left still so this would be the way to go I guess. Poland has changed a fair bit since 2005 and mostly for the better, though it’s not as chrap as it used to be.

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Norma 203B works wonders in my .416 Remington.

Have owned both rifles. I sold the Sako, I wanted to like the rifle but couldn't warm to it. I still have 3 Model 70 Magnums. I have no preference for manufacturers but prefer to use the Winchester.

Opposite Pole said:

Hi Guys, which one would you rather Winchester M70 Safari or Sako Brown Bear in 416? I know one is a Rigby and the other Rem mag but cartridge differences aside which 416 do you reckon is a better rifle? I had a bit of spare time and was browsing the internet and realised that unlike in US in Europe they are priced pretty close to one another. Kimber Caprivi on the other hand costs over 4000USD in Europe. This is a purely hypothetical question as I don't need another rifle or another medium/large bore for that matter as I've already got a 375HH and 470NE.

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M70, hands down

Opposite Pole said:

Interesting, are they ejected straight up? It'd be pretty hard to set up a 40 cal rifle so that you can comfortably use high mounted scope and irons.

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I had a Sako kodiak in 375 and now have a sako brown bear in 450 Rigby
on it is a swarovsky Z6 1x6 ee with low optilock rings and never had ejection problem

Varget is my go to powder in my 416 Rem Mag. Seems very accurate and not supposed to be temperature sensitive. If I remember correctly, 76grains gets you 2350 or so with a 400gr Swift. This is not a max load, so I feel the pressure is within range for reliability. And 2350 is all the punch you need.

You'll appreciate the extra magazine length with the M70, too....

spike.t said:

Totally agree with you on the front sight being way too big. It's the only thing I don't like on my black bear.....where did you get the smaller bead or is it an option you can get from sako?

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Ditto that, my brothers front sight cost him a good sambar stag out out of his black bear. On the bench they're manageable but in the bush on a moving target not ideal.

Winchester Model 70 isn't called the " rifleman's rifle " for nothing. Mine's an older .375 , but l guarantee you will like the new .416 Remington Mag

The Winchester wins for me !

I find Sako 85 a very temperamental rifle with regards to scope mounts and accuracy/ stock bedding issues .

Winchester M70 is probably one of the best out of the box rifles you can purchase.