Copper fouling in my Verney-Carron

Red Leg said:

After a hunting trip, I clean it lightly. We all have different experiences. I have never ever had a POI shift from copper fowling.

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+1

Use a NYLON brush, Copper solvent will eat the brass brush and part of the residue on the patch will actually be from the brush.

also, I've had good luck reversing direction (push through from the action and pushing through from the muzzle.

Red Leg said:

This will sound like heresy to many, but unless accuracy is affected, why worry? The copper is filling irregularities in the barrel. I currently own several dozen rifles, and have owned many dozen others. I use only balistoil. Usually, only ballistol with a cloth patch - and not real often with that. I bet I haven't used a copper solvent in thirty-years or more. And virtually all of my rifles are MOA or better, and the perhaps three or four that aren't don't have copper issues - they are pre-WWI or WWII take-downs.

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That is very interesting!

Some rifles just foul more than others!
My daughter's Weatherby Mark V 7mm Weatherby Magnum shoots sub minute of angle with a clean bore, BUT groups begin to enlarge after 12 - 15 shots with Weatherby 140 grain ammo. Simple solution was to clean the barrel well after each shooting outing.
My old pre 64 M70 .308 does not foul easily so I only clean it when in the mood; it still shoots minute of deer and hog.

Red Leg said:

..... The copper is filling irregularities in the barrel. ........

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I learned that very hard lesson.
I cleaned a barrel once to remove all the copper. It turned a fine shooting rifle into a shotgun.
It took 20 shots to "foul" the barrel with enough copper to have it shoot properly again.
That mistake has never been repeated.

probably wasn't run in properly in the first place.
bruce.

Red Leg said:

This will sound like heresy to many, but unless accuracy is affected, why worry? The copper is filling irregularities in the barrel ... I bet I haven't used a copper solvent in thirty-years or more. And virtually all of my rifles are MOA or better ...

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+1

BRICKBURN said:

I learned that very hard lesson. I cleaned a barrel once to remove all the copper. It turned a fine shooting rifle into a shotgun. It took 20 shots to "foul" the barrel with enough copper to have it shoot properly again. That mistake has never been repeated.

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+1

In my experience, it takes about a dozen shots for a barrel to stabilize. It is then good for 100 to 150 shots with hyper fast calibers (Wby, RUM, Nosler, etc.), or several hundred (200 to 300) with older generations magnums (e.g. .300 Win or 7 mm Rem). For many people that represents several years of shooting, or even decades if there are many different rifles to pick from and shoot...

- A couple pulls with the Bore Snake to remove powder residues and/or dust after every day out... (do not underestimate dust inside a barrel: acts as a very aggressive abrasive when the bullet pushes it and compresses it forward).

- No specific barrel cleaning after the end of a hunt other a couple more Bore Snake pulls (unless bad weather etc.)...

- A light oil patch for long term storage of carbon steel barrels; nothing for stainless steel barrels...

- Always dry an oiled barrel before shooting it... (excessive oil does not have the time to move forward of the bullet and it compresses between the bullet and the grooves, to the point that it can create a micro bulge in the barrel.

- Came to the conclusion that constant cleaning does more damage to a barrel and its accuracy than shooting...

if you really want to damage a barrel, use bore snakes.
bruce.

bruce moulds said:

if you really want to damage a barrel, use bore snakes.
bruce.

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Interesting statement. Do you care to explain why?

Terminally authoritative personal judgments are always interesting, but the rationale behind them is even more interesting.

It seems intuitively hard to understand that:
1- pulling a soft nylon string a few times will damage more the lands of a barrel than rubbing a hard cleaning rod - be it of copper or aluminum, never mind steel! against the lands - never mind the throat and crown! dozens of time at each cleaning;
2 - pulling a bronze brush nested in said soft string will damage more a barrel than pushing it with said hard cleaning rod.

Pray do tell, I am always genuinely opened to learning something I may have missed before...

the problem with them is that however hard you try, they rub on the crowning and
a) wear a bell shape there and
b) the bell will in all probability not be even.
the soft string will contain abrasive material after a few uses.
this will destroy accuracy.
use of a good quality straight rod will minimize this.
bruce.

Not passing judgement on anyone's cleaning protocol or method but if boresnakes are your cup of tea, or you have an autoloader, lever or other firearm that can't be cleaned from the breech end, a muzzle guide may be a desirable option.

https://deweyrods.com/product-category/parts-accessories/rod-guides/muzzle-guides/

dougfinn said:

Well I finally got it clean after 6 hours of soaking in copper solvent and wiping. I’m still wondering if it’s the copper wash on the Hornady bullets that coming off and fouling the rifling. I’ve had green and blue patches from my other rifles when using the copper solvent, but never so bad that it was visible in the bore, and quite heavy looking by the looks of it. I understand the hesitation to use steel wool, but I’ve used 0000 on restorations to remove rust and that’s all it removes, it even leaves the bluing if done gently. I’ve got some Woodleighs I’m going to load so I’ll see if they also foul the barrel.

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I would try my first shot with a wet barrel,MMO, Hoppe's #9 or some other light solvent that you have. Afterwards, take a good look-see down the barrel (unloaded of course) and check for copper. Your next shots will have powder fouling for a lubricant which MAY help with the copper fouling.

This next statement will surely stir a few opinions but unless you borescope after cleaning, you really don't know if it's clean. All a white patch means is you ran a patch through it and it was still white. Diagree? Ask ANY gunsmith if it's true.

bruce moulds said:

probably wasn't run in properly in the first place.
bruce.

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No clue. I was too young when I got the rifle to know anything about "running in".
I've had the rifle my entire life and decided (at the urging of a friend) to use an electronic contraption to remove the copper. It worked. The result was not what was advertised.
I fixed it with some copper additive from some bullets.

bruce moulds said:

the problem with them is that however hard you try, they rub on the crowning and
a) wear a bell shape there and
b) the bell will in all probability not be even.
the soft string will contain abrasive material after a few uses.
this will destroy accuracy.
use of a good quality straight rod will minimize this.
bruce.

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Well... if pulling a soft nylon string from chamber to mouth a few times after shooting 20 to 40 rounds is going to "wear a bell shape" in a hardened steel barrel crown, I do not want to even think about what hard mono-metal bullets or steel jacketed "solids" or gilding zinc alloy jacketed "softs" passing at 3,000 + fps, under 60,000 + psi of pressure, and pushed by cutting torch-hot 3,300 + F combustion gases jetting between the crown and the bullet base as it exits the crown, will do to it

If Bore Snakes "will destroy accuracy" I guess that my Steyr SSG 69; Mk 11; Mk 12; and Mk 13 did not get the memo, because they continue to shoot 1/4 to 1/2 MOA groups out to 600, 800 and 1,200 yd (depending on caliber) day in, day out, despite years to decades (depending on how old the rifle is) of having a bell shape worn out of their crown every few weeks...

Note: I only attach pictures to document that I actually own the rifles and I am not making it up







As to the "soft string will contain abrasive material after a few uses" my experience is that the embedded bronze brush pushes everything out of the barrel (you can actually see the bristles project forward a small cloud of powder residue when the brush section pops out of the crown). Beside, should the bore snake become really dirty, you can wash it...

BRICKBURN said:

No clue. I was too young when I got the rifle to know anything about "running in".
I've had the rifle my entire life and decided (at the urging of a friend) to use an electronic contraption to remove the copper. It worked. The result was not what was advertised.
I fixed it with some copper additive from some bullets.

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Totally +1 on that too. The voice of actual experience Been there too 20 years ago

Red Leg said:

... We all have different experiences ...

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Yep, to each his own...

Hogpatrol said:

I would try my first shot with a wet barrel,MMO, Hoppe's #9 or some other light solvent that you have. Afterwards, take a good look-see down the barrel (unloaded of course) and check for copper. Your next shots will have powder fouling for a lubricant which MAY help with the copper fouling.

This next statement will surely stir a few opinions but unless you borescope after cleaning, you really don't know if it's clean. All a white patch means is you ran a patch through it and it was still white. Diagree? Ask ANY gunsmith if it's true.

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I admire the attention to detail - I think it is crazy - but I admire it. And I know I am irritating to all of you who pay a lot of attention to this sort of thing, but I truly see no practical advantage to it. If the rifle is shooting and not rusting - I refuse to obsess over the real or perceived "cleanliness" of the barrel. I do not own a bore scope and never will. And I suspect I can hold groups within any practical range with anyone who cares to shoot with me.

And look, I am not saying there is no value in scoping, and de-coppering, and breaking in barrels through some arcane process. I am merely saying there has been no practical value for me in getting real interested in it. And I wonder if we sometimes encourage less experienced shooters to become more focused on bores and residue than on simply learning to actually fire those tight groups we all love from every conceivable field position at practical ranges.

One Day... said:

Well... if pulling a soft nylon string from chamber to mouth a few times after shooting 20 to 40 rounds is going to "wear a bell shape" in a hardened steel barrel crown, I do not want to even think about what hard mono-metal bullets or steel jacketed "solids" or gilding zinc alloy jacketed "softs" passing at 3,000 + fps, under 60,000 + psi of pressure, and pushed by cutting torch-hot 3,300 + F combustion gases jetting between the crown and the bullet base as it exits the crown, will do to it

If Bore Snakes "will destroy accuracy" I guess that my Steyr SSG 69; Mk 11; Mk 12; and Mk 13 did not get the memo, because they continue to shoot 1/4 to 1/2 MOA groups out to 600, 800 and 1,200 yd (depending on caliber) day in, day out, despite years to decades (depending on how old the rifle is) of having a bell shape worn out of their crown every few weeks...

Note: I only attach pictures to document that I actually own the rifles and I am not making it up

View attachment 268660

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As to the "soft string will contain abrasive material after a few uses" my experience is that the embedded bronze brush pushes everything out of the barrel (you can actually see the bristles project forward a small cloud of powder residue when the brush section pops out of the crown). Beside, should the bore snake become really dirty, you can wash it...

Totally +1 on that too. The voice of actual experience Been there too 20 years ago

Yep, to each his own...

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Reminds me of that GEICO commercial with Charlie Daniels.

In a Lyman reloading manual I had probably 35 years ago it stated in there “ Bear in mind more barrels are ruined by over cleaning then by neglect “

larry4831 said:

In a Lyman reloading manual I had probably 35 years ago it stated in there “ Bear in mind more barrels are ruined by over cleaning then by neglect “

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And the corollary is more barrels are sold because of borescopes.

I can't say enough in kudos for KG12, and it is safe for chrome moly barrels! May not be safe for bare hands...understand it contains arsenic...

Plus 1 for sure on Bore Tech CU2 copper remover, no ammonia and works better than Sweets. I am a bit anal about cleaning guns in that I do clean them after shooting, every time. Mostly with Hoppes 9, but for copper I use the Bore Tech. I actually enjoy cleaning guns, its a great time waster. I don't believe however in breaking in or "running in" a barrel, I think someone called it. It may be a good thing but it cannot be proven on an individual barrel to have made any difference, just not possible. I prefer with a new barrel to shoot it a few times, mop out the crud, shoot it some more and clean it, down to bare metal and proceed from there and see how it goes. As to Bore Snakes ruining bores, that's a new one on me. I use them and like them, in particular for the guns that don't lend themselves to rod cleaning from the breech end. I don't generally use them on bolt actions except for expedience, usually at the range when done shooting. Some guns just tend to copper more than others, just how it is.