Acceptable accuracy for Double Rifles

So then why do I see people post that the barrels are regulated at 25 yards, 50 yards, 80 yards...etc.
If they are regulated at 50 yards, aren't they the same at 100?
First, whatever anyone is posting - a properly regulated double should never cross. Ever.

Remember, in regulating a rifle, a gunmaker has both a barrel separation issue and an impact to the sights challenge - which are normally fixed on a double. Perfect separation six inches above, below or to the side of the sight is a problem. That means any load but the regulating load must be moved to the sights or the barrels re-regulated - as opposed to adjusting the sights to the load. Some loads may be perfectly parallel at say fifty yards and separated by four-inches or more at 100. If you can see the sights and shoot an accurate group at 70 or 100, it normally will be perfect anywhere closer. However, it is much easier to achieve regulation at closer ranges than longer which is why most gunmakers today regulate their rifles at fifty. I see a lot of regulation targets where the two shots are an inch or so apart, but not parallel - that can be a real problem as range increases. Order a bespoke Rigby rising bite and they will "regulate" your rifle at whatever range you specify and set up the sights accordingly - of course that will cost you 125 grand or so. Assuming your Heym was regulated at fifty (whatever the test target says) you really don't know what the rifle is doing at 100 until you shoot it at that range. I would urge you to do so.

All of the loads for my doubles to include my .470 and 500/416 were developed to "regulate" at 100 meters - parallel and six-o'clock on the sights. I know that they don't cross at any range less than that, and they won't cross at any range greater that matters.

Finally, as a further fly in the strudel, any new rifle was regulated to a particular lot of a ammunition. A different lot, by the same manufacturer and with the same bullet may regulate differently. When you find something that works, get a bunch of it.
 
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OK, let's go step by step:

1) Barrels are actually convergent on a double. This is a fact.


Allow me to crudely demonstrate, using my .470 Krieghoff:

A cursory measurement shows that the center to center distance between the two firing pin is 0.95something" (we do not need minute precision here), hence the center to center distance between the two barrels at the cartridge head is 0.95something"...

IMG_2507.jpg


A cursory measurement shows that the distance between the two barrels bores is 0.33something" (again, we do not need minute precision here). Since the diameter of a .470 bullet is .474, the center to center distance between the two barrels at the mouth is .33something" + .474" = is 0.80something"...

IMG_2508.jpg


Mathematically, the two barrels converge from 0.95something" center to center at the cartridge head - 0.80something" at the barrel mouth = 0.15something" convergence over the length of the barrels.

That is a fact.

2) Regulation

Because the barrels factually converge, if the convergence of the barrels was the only factor, by definition the barrels would cross at one point down range.
But convergence is not a by-product of barrels assembly (barrels could just as well be assembled to be parallel or to diverge). Convergence is the by-product of regulation. Regulation is designed to compensate for the primary characteristic of side by side double rifles recoil (beside the barrels going up), which is the yaw.
In a side by side double, when the right barrel is fired, since it is located on the right side of the axis of the stock, the rifle twists to the right as it starts climbing under the recoil. As a consequence the right barrel muzzle points upward and to the right when the bullet leaves the pipe. The same happens in reverse with the left barrel.
The purpose of regulation is to get the barrels to converge just enough so that under yaw the barrels are pointed straight when the bullets leave the tubes. This is why Red Leg says:
a properly regulated rifle ... fires parallel until the bullets hit dirt.

Notice that the rifle fires parallel because the convergence of the barrels negates the divergence from the sighting plane caused by the side-way yaw of each barrel in its direction under recoil.

This dynamic is what makes regulating barrels so difficult because the convergence is generally fixed on the large caliber rifles (although in some rifles it can be adjusted as pointed out by HWL) but the recoil and recoil management are not fixed. Factors at play include:
- bullet weight and bearing surface: this influences how long the bullet will take to exit the barrel, hence where the barrel mouth will be under recoil when the bullet leaves;
- propellant charge (amount, burn rate, etc. - including from ammo lot to ammo lot): this too influences how long the bullet will take to exit the barrel, hence where the barrel mouth will be under recoil when the bullet leaves;
- whether the rifle can physically yaw: off hand shooting will produce different results than shooting from an over-tight bench rest set up (God forbid! a lead sled LOL !!!);
- physical characteristics of the shooter and ability to control recoil: a 150 lbs. shooter will not have the barrels in the same spot under recoil, as a 250 lbs. shooter will when the bullet leaves; a shooter rolling with recoil will have different results from a shooter fighting recoil; etc. etc.

This is why in the old days the Brits used to ask to finalize the regulation of the barrels with the actual client actually shooting the gun, from a standing position with a simple shelf rest only bearing the weight of the rifle to steady the aim and allowing an unhindered recoil and yaw.

This is why too, the vast majority of mass produced European doubles are over & under instead of side x side, because there is no lateral yaw with an over & under (both barrels are in the axis of the stock) and they are much easier to regulate for vertical dispersion than the side x side are for horizontal dispersion.

So, factually, a double that crosses can indeed be of poor manufacturing or shoddy regulation (and there has been no shortage of such from manufacturers that will mercifully remain unnamed; suffice it to say that one generally get their money's worth ;-) but this may also be a byproduct of the rifle being shot with a different load than the one it was regulated with (which is why makers always supply - or should always supply - a regulation target that identifies the load used to regulate); and this may also often be the byproduct of a shooter new to big guns and not controlling recoil properly, which can be corrected with practice.

Once the barrels are regulated, then the rifle may be sighted, which generally involves mounting the proper front sight height (and occasionally changing the rear sight height), and drifting sideways the rear sight, until the regulated group impact in elevation and direction the point of aim. Obviously, a regulation that would locate a group 1 foot high and two feet left would be defective, and proper regulation must be achieved within a couple inches of target center before it is worth adjusting the sights for final sighting.

A well regulated double will shoot the right barrel on the right side, and the left barrel on the left side, separated by no more than 2" (1" is the holly Grail) from muzzle into eternity. This is when they truly shoot parallel. When properly sighted this rifle will place these two shots at point of aim at 50, 75, 100 yd or whatever distance you want, based on the height of your front sight compensating for the rainbow trajectory of big Nitro Express cartridges.

I hope this helps :)
 
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First, whatever anyone is posting - a properly regulated double should never cross. Ever. ... Assuming your Heym was regulated at fifty (whatever the test target says) you really don't know what the rifle is doing at 100 until you shoot it at that range. I would urge you to do so.
You posted while I was laboriously typing Red Leg, and I cannot agree more with your post. We are saying the same thing. Hopefully my explaining helps folks understand what is taking place when the powder ignites...

Actually, I am utterly NOT impressed by a stand-alone tight 2 shot group from a double without detailed context. It means nothing on its own. It may show a right on the right and a left on the left just before the trajectories cross; or a right on the left and a left on the right just after the trajectories cross, etc.

The only way to see if a double is properly regulated, as you state, is to shoot a group at 50 yd, paying attention to identify which is the right and which is the left, and shooting a group at 100 yd, again paying attention to identify which is the right and which is the left. IF the 100 yd group is essentially the same as the 50 yd group (1/2" wider is OK to allow for declining visual acuity with iron sights ;-), THEN the rifle is actually regulated, i.e. the two barrels shoot parallel trajectories.

Folks would be surprised to realize how often rifles producing a 1" or 2" group at 50 yd, with the regulation load, end up producing a 6" or 8" group at 100 yd, thereby demonstrating that they are not regulated even though their barrels have been squeezed together to shoot together at 50 yd, which most of the time imply that they are crossing at 60 or 70 yd and the two barrels trajectories are getting ever further apart as the range increases.

But not to despair! Few people will ever shoot a .470 with iron sights way passed 70 yd, so a lot of poorly regulated doubles - and a lot of well regulated doubles shooting the wrong load or being handled improperly - end up serving perfectly well their blissfully ignorant and proud owners, whether the hits take place before or after crossing, within a couple inches or so of point of aim; and in many cases anyway off hand shooting in the excitement of the hunt introduces way more divergence than the barrels could ever produce! Thankfully, short range gunnery and a minute of buffalo that covers about a square foot of vital areas forgives many sins. It's a happy world out there :)

Scoped .375 doubles are a different story. The clarity of the glass and the shooting distance will promptly reveal what is what...
 
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Eeshhh.. you guys are too clever for me.
S very interesting and educational read from you double boffins.
( Probably why I stick to simple bolt action rifles) :D
 
Eeshhh.. you guys are too clever for me.
S very interesting and educational read from you double boffins.
( Probably why I stick to simple bolt action rifles) :D

Living without a double is possible, but not dersirable....

;)

HWL
 
Living without a double is possible, but not dersirable....

;)

HWL
They truly are beguiling but cruel mistresses.
 
Eeshhh.. you guys are too clever for me.
S very interesting and educational read from you double boffins.
( Probably why I stick to simple bolt action rifles) :D

As a new member of the double gun world its not that difficult. Just jump in!

PEER Pressure :sneaky:
 
Living without a double is possible, but not dersirable....

;)

HWL
I can see the deep end of the pool now and I'm headed back to wade in the kiddie pool.
 
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My Merkel 140 470NE was regulated with Woodleigh 500gr SN, to 80m. I have developed the following load that shoots consistently 1-2 inch groups at 100m with federal cartridges, federal 215 magnum primers and 106gr Norma MRP

What is your load? Does it require the use of a filler?
 
Red Leg and One Day THANK YOU. Your posts were very enlightening. A neophyte would have to do a lot of research to come up with that much information.
Roger That!
 
Double rifles are usually set with 0.005” - 0.007” of convergence per inch of barrel length by the barrel maker (side by side doubles, that is, the amount of convergence a function of rifle caliber and weight). That is from where regulation begins, on the range, first the barrels and then the sights. Done right, as is mentioned the bullets will not cross with the regulated load. Neither will the bullets diverge. The flight of each, left and right, will remain parallel out to any distance.
 
Red Leg and One Day THANK YOU. Your posts were very enlightening. A neophyte would have to do a lot of research to come up with that much information.
Yes thank you very much, as a newer double owner as well this is great info
 
Red Leg and One Day THANK YOU. Your posts were very enlightening. A neophyte would have to do a lot of research to come up with that much information.
Shootist43 beat me to it so, +1.
Appreciate all the knowledge.
 
Found out from Merkel USA that my 140 was built in 2003 and regulated with Federal Trophy Bonded Sledgehammers! Art and I will attempt to match that load. I have lots of work and practice to do.
 
@One Day... and @Red Leg,

Great information!

For those new to the DR world, and I consider myself to still be after a little over a year of owning one, the regulation issue raises some questions. The big concern I had, with being incapable of being happy with any one bullet or load, was would I be able to develop a load that would shoot accurately that did not match the regulation load.

Fortunately with some good information from the rifle builder on powder and a little work on my part, I've developed a load using my favorite North Fork bullets. And I'm guessing a load with Woodleigh's is quite possible too.

So in my case I've got a .470NE which typically use 500gr bullets. Knowing what powder was used for regulation, and also using 500gr bullets even if not the same type, it seems like you SHOULD be able to develop a load and thus NOT require re-regulation of your rifle. Is this an accurate thing to say?
 
@One Day... and @Red Leg... it seems like you SHOULD be able to develop a load and thus NOT require re-regulation of your rifle. Is this an accurate thing to say?
ABSOLUTELY Phil!
The bottom line is that the bullets must leave the barrels at the exact time the barrels are pointing, one a a time, exactly at the point you intend to hit (drop being compensated for by the height of your front sight).
So, theoretically, there are any numbers of bullets and powders than will shoot perfectly well with your rifle the way it is assembled, i.e. without requiring re-regulation. The secret, as you have found out, is to go through a process of trials and errors so that the combination of powder type (i.e. burn rate); powder quantity (i.e. velocity); primer (i.e. ignition rate); bullet weight (i.e. inertia to overcome and momentum required); bullet bearing surface (i.e. resistance to propulsion) + if you really want a laundry list: bullet material; external temperature; your own shooting style; etc. etc. not to forget the alignment of the planets LOL, all end up producing that magic moment when the bullets exit the barrels at exactly the right time when the barrels are at exactly the right spot in their recoil.
A number of folks have developed an array of loads for their doubles, especially folks who shoot a .450 of one persuasion or another and who can select from the entire range of .458 slugs, that allow them to use their rifle from elephant at max power, down to driven wild board with "half" bullet weight and "half" powder charge (beware: one needs to use a filler for the rest of the case space in such case).
Not only you "should" but you "will". Just a question of trying all possible permutations. Hint: once you have the magic recipe, write it down :)
 
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