10mm Buffalo

mark-hunter · May 10, 2018

flatwater bill said:
No one wants to publish a report entitled "how I used too little a gun, and wounded a magnificent animal". But I wonder.....? Is this an OK idea? I would like to hear the thoughts of my fellow hunters on using a firearm with 40% the energy of a factory 30-30 Winchester carbine. Safe hunting to all....................................................Flatwater Bill

Ever since I started my research about hunting in Africa, one of the first things I learned was Robert Ruarks "make sure to use enough gun".
Since the time of Ruark till modern days, and from my first research till my actual first hunt - this has become African hunter's daily mantra, something you hear practically 2 to 5 times per day in a camp, and very frequently from PH as well.

And then we have something called "best industry practices", which generally state 375 HH is accepted ethical minimum and practical minimum, for such animals, and then moreover - for some countries we have such "industry practice", actually written in the form of law or regulation.

And if almost entire hunting industry came to such consensus and understanding, then there must be a good reason to it.

I would consider a pistol as a tool of a last resort in total emergency, only for self defense against buffalo.
And in a same time, I can not image situation where the rifle would fail, and pistol would not.

So I think it is not a good idea.

Laniarius · Dec 19, 2018

IvW said:
It appears the 10mm as well as a semi auto is legal for hunting in RSA.

Is it a good idea to use one on Buffalo? I think not.

Minimum barrel lengths for handgun hunting 22. (1) The following norms apply to minimum barrel lengths of handguns for the purpose of hunting-
(a) 100mm for(i) centre fire single action revolver; (ii) centre fire double action revolver; (iii) rimfire single action revolver; and (iv) rimfire double action revolver. (b) 150rmm for(i) centre fire single action break neck pistol for the hunting of(aa) any furred game; and (bb) feathered game, including ostrich; (ii) rimfire single action break neck pistol for the hunting of(aa) furred game up to and including the size of a rock hyrax; and (bb) feathered game; (iii) centre fire bolt action pistol for the hunting of(aa) furred game; and (bb) feathered game, including an ostrich;(iv) rimfire bolt action pistol for the hunting of(aa) furred game up to and including the size of a rock hyrax; and (bb) feathered game; (v) centre fire falling block pistol for the hunting of(aa) furred game; and (bb) feathered game, including an ostrich; and (vi) rimfire falling block pistol for the hunting of(aa) furred game up to and including the size of a rock hyrax; and (bb) feathered game; and (c) 125mm for(i) centre fire semi-automatic pistol; and (ii) rimfire semi-automatic pistol.

Minimum calibers for handgun hunting 23. (1) The following norms apply to minimum calibers for revolvers(a) a rimfire single or double action revolver for the hunting of-(i) furred game up to and including the size of a rock hyrax; and (ii) feathered game; (b) a centre fire single or double action revolver of less than .357 magnum caliber for the hunting of furred game larger than rock hyrax, up to and including the size of a grey duiker; and (c) a centre fire single or double action revolver of .357 magnum or larger caliber for the hunting of(i) furred game larger than grey duiker; and (ii) ostrich. (2) The following norms apply to minimum calibers for semi-automatic pistols( a) a rimfire semi-automatic pistol for the hunting of(i) furred game up to and including the size of a rock hyrax; and (ii) feathered game; (b) a centre fire semi-automatic pistol smaller than .357 magnum or 357 Sig for the hunting of furred game larger than rock hyrax up to and including the size of a grey duiker; and(c) a centre fire semi-automatic pistol of .357 magnum or 357 Sig or larger for the hunting of(i) furred game larger than the size of grey duiker; and (ii) ostrich.

https://www.environment.gov.za/site...tices/nemba_huntingindustry_g32798gen1614.pdf

I just came across a picture of Razor Dobbs with a buffalo and 10 mm pistol and thought I'd find some discussion here.

So it's legal to hunt with a semi-auto pistol, but what about importing? I thought that the only kinds of handguns that can be imported to RSA for hunting are revolvers or single-shots with scopes. I guess Razor Dobbs was able to get some special permit?

Incidentally, I'm not interested in hunting with a semi-auto myself in RSA. If I were to do handgun hunting there, it would be with a revolver. I'm just curious about how Dobbs was able to bring his pistol into the country (and by sound of it, not just RSA).

BWH · Dec 19, 2018

Long story.... you can... yes, you have to go through significant permitting. @PHOENIX PHIL @JKO Hunting Safaris can give you more specifics. He hunted with @JKO Hunting Safaris

Von S. · Dec 20, 2018

BenKK said:
I never wanted to impress anybody when I hunted buffalo with a longbow - twice by myself with no back-up rifle, once accompanied by a bloke with a thirty-thirty, and once resting my double on the ground while I sent the arrow. It’s not about impressing, it’s about memories that I want and enjoy. That’s what all my hunting means to me - the memories of adventures while playing my part in wilderness conservation.

BenKK

Well it impressed the hell out of me.

I've killed 5 deer, 1 bear, half a dozen rabbits, and some squirrels with a bow....none of which were of any size or distinction, but still pretty thrilling.

Keep up the good work.

PHOENIX PHIL · Dec 20, 2018

Laniarius said:
I just came across a picture of Razor Dobbs with a buffalo and 10 mm pistol and thought I'd find some discussion here.

So it's legal to hunt with a semi-auto pistol, but what about importing? I thought that the only kinds of handguns that can be imported to RSA for hunting are revolvers or single-shots with scopes. I guess Razor Dobbs was able to get some special permit?

Incidentally, I'm not interested in hunting with a semi-auto myself in RSA. If I were to do handgun hunting there, it would be with a revolver. I'm just curious about how Dobbs was able to bring his pistol into the country (and by sound of it, not just RSA).

As @BWH mentioned, Razor hunted with Jacques @JKO Hunting Safaris, however this was in October, 2016 when Jacques was with Serapa Safaris. Razor actually came into Serapa a day or two after my wife and I got there.

I was quite surprised too to see that he would be hunting with his 10mm and spoke to him a bit about the process of bringing the pistol in. I don't recall the details, but it did take some effort. I would think I'd want to employ the efforts of one of the pre-approved permit services to get this done.

BTW, the buffalo was not taken at Serapa. But while I was there Razor did take a number of PG animals including a rather long for a pistol shot at a blue wildebeest.

crs · Dec 20, 2018

What Ben KK said +1 !

There are some hand gun hunters on this forum, and I respect their skill, confidence, and courage, but whether or not they chime in is their business. I will not speak for them, but I know a few that have taken African game with hand guns and done so effectively; from plains game to buff, ele, rhino, giraffe , leopard, and so on.

I recently hunted the YO Ranch in Texas with the owner of Grizzly Cartridge and he used a 10 MM handgun on two exotics. He is going with some of us for black bear next May and he and I will be shooting 10 MM guns; him a hand gun and me my Simson & Co Suhl DR. Another one a muzzle loader and the fourth a crossbow. The sport is called HUNTING.

PS that is one of my 10 MM rifles in the avatar picture. AKA .405 WCF.

observe · Feb 15, 2019

sgt_zim · Feb 15, 2019

fsrmg1 said:
I wonder if I could score a good bull as well with a Red Rider BB gun?

The plan, I wait until a big bull is having a drink at the watering hole. I sneak up behind and shoot him in the clackers when he has his head in the water. I get my trophy once he drowns!

What do you think, good plan?

crs · Feb 15, 2019

"It's not about impressing, it's about the memories of adventures while playing my part in wilderness conservation."

+1 and AMEN!

If more of us could accept this philosophy rather than criticizing those that do, we might have a better world.

Shootist43 · Feb 15, 2019

Does anyone have the specifics on the shot placement of the bullet that killed the buffalo in question? A brain shot could be instantly fatal, any other, instantly unethical.

Eric Anderson · Feb 15, 2019

BenKK said:
I never wanted to impress anybody when I hunted buffalo with a longbow - twice by myself with no back-up rifle, once accompanied by a bloke with a thirty-thirty, and once resting my double on the ground while I sent the arrow. It’s not about impressing, it’s about memories that I want and enjoy. That’s what all my hunting means to me - the memories of adventures while playing my part in wilderness conservation.

If you are hunting Cape Buffalo alone with a bow, that’s on you, and I have no problem with that. You know the risk, you are an adult.

I am not sold on the idea of hunting dangerous game with a bow or pistol with a PH. That, in my mind, is selfishly putting the PH’s life unnecessary at risk.

bruce moulds · Feb 15, 2019

you have the choice of what you use.
the animal does not, and deserves the probability of most sudden death possible.
bruce.

IvW · Feb 15, 2019

Razor Dobbs is just another TV host hunter.... he f....up big time on getting his first buffalo with a rifle...3 times...

Hunting for show is just wrong...get out there hunt hard and enjoy...not for show and sponsors...

bruce moulds · Feb 15, 2019

like the woman who shot a buff with an air rifle.
prepared to cause suffering to an innocent for exposure.
bruce.

crs · Feb 15, 2019

sgt-zim,
A Red Ryder bb gun? No way man, nothing short of the Daisy pump!

TOBY458 · Feb 15, 2019

Here ya go.

Red Leg · Feb 15, 2019

crs said:
"It's not about impressing, it's about the memories of adventures while playing my part in wilderness conservation."

+1 and AMEN!

If more of us could accept this philosophy rather than criticizing those that do, we might have a better world.

I think folks like Razor sort of loses the benefit of the doubt when he pulls off this sort of stunt for TV ratings. I don't know him from Adam, but let's assume he is indeed the finest handgun shot since Doc Holiday. It concerns me that this sort of thing encourages people who have have never poked a buffalo with anything heavier than a remote control to believe that should try to emulate it. And the point really is, that it is the tracker or PH who are most likely to get crushed when things inevitably go wrong.

There is a recent video of Boddington trying to kill a buffalo with a revolver making the rounds. He screws up the first shot badly (easy to see in the video) and it is the PH (I believe Diekie Muller in the Limpopo - but I could be wrong) who ends up having to clean it up - apparently an all out charge. Sadly neither Craig nor his cameraman were there for the ending. Also a stunt - and one that could have ended badly for everyone but Boddington. One again, hopes some of his many acolytes with far less skill aren't encouraged to try the same thing.

And look - anyone can screw up a shot. But not doing everything possible to prevent it - including, for the vast majority of us, using enough gun - just strikes me as irresponsible.

wesheltonj · Feb 15, 2019

As I said in a earlier post I have met Razor once at a AAA Africa Sherpa Safaris mixer at his house in the Texas Hill Country. I don’t have any reason to doubt his skills with a handgun which is much better than my skill with a handgun. Would I do the same, no - too many variables.

Dr Ray · Feb 15, 2019

Eric Anderson said:
Just to add to this, there is no evidence Native Americans used bows on buffalo until the horse was reintroduced to the new world. It appears all buffalo hunting was done with spears. I imagine it is the same no matter what the continent.

Probably

One Day... · Feb 16, 2019

Red Leg said:
I think folks like Razor sort of loses the benefit of the doubt when he pulls off this sort of stunt for TV ratings. I don't know him from Adam, but let's assume he is indeed the finest handgun shot since Doc Holiday. It concerns me that this sort of thing encourages people who have have never poked a buffalo with anything heavier than a remote control to believe that should try to emulate it. And the point really is, that it is the tracker or PH who are most likely to get crushed when things inevitably go wrong.

There is a recent video of Boddington trying to kill a buffalo with a revolver making the rounds. He screws up the first shot badly (easy to see in the video) and it is the PH (I believe Diekie Muller in the Limpopo - but I could be wrong) who ends up having to clean it up - apparently an all out charge. Sadly neither Craig nor his cameraman were there for the ending. Also a stunt - and one that could have ended badly for everyone but Boddington. One again, hopes some of his many acolytes with far less skill aren't encouraged to try the same thing.

And look - anyone can screw up a shot. But not doing everything possible to prevent it - including, for the vast majority of us, using enough gun - just strikes me as irresponsible.

Well... if my math is correct, a 200 gr 10 mm bullet out of a pistol barrel at 1,300 fps develops 750 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle (for lack of another easily quantifiable metric).
Tanzania, Zambia and South Africa have a minimum caliber requirement of .375 for hunting Cape buffalo, but no energy requirement. However, we know that the quintessential 300 gr .375 H&H at 2,500+ fps develops 4,200+ ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle...
Zimbabwe requires a minimum of 3,909 ft/lbs...
Namibia has a minimum energy requirement of 3,982 ft/lbs...
But what do Tanzania, Zambia, South Africa, Zimbabwe or Namibia know about buffalo hunting !?!?!?

10mm Buffalo

mark-hunter

Laniarius

BWH

Von S.

PHOENIX PHIL

crs

observe

sgt_zim

crs

Shootist43

Eric Anderson

bruce moulds

IvW

bruce moulds

crs

TOBY458

Red Leg

wesheltonj

Dr Ray

One Day...

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