Hunting with black rifles in Africa

I view my AR's as tools for varmint control, not hunting weapons. I did have a situation on a bunch of hogs last year, shooting at night with thermals, where the fast follow up came in handy. After the first volley (4 of us were shooting into a large group of the critters on a bait stand), 5 of the confused swine ran straight for me. I guess with the suppressors they had no idea where the shots were coming from. Anyway, the goal is to kill as many of the pests as possible. The AR is the perfect tool, particularly in 6.5 Grendel or heavier.

I have to say, I have three that can easily shoot 1/2 moa. The .308 (DPMS) is pretty heavy but the 6.5 Grendel and .223 are handle little rigs. I have more work to do, but I think that the Grendel has the potential to be the perfect pig gun.
 
Dare I say, not a lot of M1's went deer hunting after '45. I really do think it is the "lego effect" as noted above that drives this market.
You know, that is a good point. I did not think in those terms, but you are correct.

What I am not sure of however, if whether the M1 (Garand and Carbine) did not make it to the hunting fields in the US after WWII because they failed to attract the hunters' interest (?), or was it because States prohibited the use of semi automatic rifles at the time?

To this day, it seems that this is still a confusing field with various States imposing various restrictions on caliber, magazine capacity, etc. and, I believe, Pennsylvania still prohibiting semi-auto rifles for big game.

Does someone have the data State by State of what is allowed or prohibited in regard to hunting with semi auto rifles, and when semi auto became legal for hunting?
 
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people have been sporterizing mil rifles for years.
the brits and germans made finre mauser sporters, and the springfield became the m70 win.
remington used the p14/m17 prior to the 700 style action of today.
all these were improvements on the basic battle rifles when hunting.
no hunter needs a 20 shot mag, which just gets in the way.
good sporting rifles point.
bruce.
 
I view my AR's as tools for varmint control, not hunting weapons. The AR is the perfect tool, particularly in 6.5 Grendel or heavier. I have more work to do, but I think that the Grendel has the potential to be the perfect pig gun.
I have a friend who uses a NEMO 300WM with thermal for hogs, coyote and general pest control.
He says it's good out to 300+ yards for ethical kills in daylight or about 150 at night.
I haven't shot it yet, but I can't wait to do so.
With a suppressor, my friend says they have no idea where you are at.
Taking 3-4 from a sounder is routine (at night) for him, but he as a lot of experience doing do.

But once again, it's not hunting...it's varmint and pest control.
 
You know, that is a good point. I did not think in those terms, but you are correct.

What I am not sure of however, if whether the M1 (Garand and Carbine) did not make it to the hunting fields in the US after WWII because they failed to attract the hunters' interest (?), or was it because States prohibited the use of semi automatic rifles at the time?

To this day, it seems that this is still a confusing field with various States imposing various restrictions on caliber, magazine capacity, etc. and, I believe, Pennsylvania still prohibiting semi-auto rifles for big game.

Does someone have the data State by State of what is allowed or prohibited in regard to hunting with semi auto rifles, and when semi auto became legal for hunting?
Legal in a lot of states for a long time. The Remington Model 8 was designed by John Moses Browning and marketed before WWI. It and its ilk were never that popular because rounds like the .35 Remington weren't particularly impressive (though very similar balistically to these slow .30+ caliber things developed for the AR platform) - everything old is new. (y) It was updated to the Model 81 in the Thirties and offered in the .300 Savage (essentially a .308 - let's not go there again!). These rifles were seen as "woods rifles" for whitetail or black bear and primarily competed with the model 94. Meanwhile, the scoped, bolt action solution was gaining traction out west, where accuracy and range were driving factors. Nowhere in the population at that time did one have a large number of shooters (Bonny and Clyde were an exception) very interested in the whole semi-auto self-defense concept.

It is pretty clear to me the current "black rifle" phenomena is not driven very much at all by hunters. This is the realm of the post-apocalyptic crowd who can spend a little or a lot to create the perfect platform (the lego effect) to take on zombies, looters, democrats their neighbors, or whomever. And before someone's head explodes, I am not saying everyone who owns a black rifle is a conspiracy nut - as noted, I own two - but there do seem to be a lot of camo-clad types for whom one could get papers at every gun show......... :unsure:
 
Legal in a lot of states for a long time. The Remington Model 8 was designed by John Moses Browning and marketed before WWI. It and its ilk were never that popular because rounds like the .35 Remington weren't particularly impressive (though very similar balistically to these slow .30+ caliber things developed for the AR platform) - everything old is new. (y) It was updated to the Model 81 in the Thirties and offered in the .300 Savage (essentially a .308 - let's not go there again!). These rifles were seen as "woods rifles" for whitetail or black bear and primarily competed with the model 94. Meanwhile, the scoped, bolt action solution was gaining traction out west, where accuracy and range were driving factors. Nowhere in the population at that time did one have a large number of shooters (Bonny and Clyde were an exception) very interested in the whole semi-auto self-defense concept.

It is pretty clear to me the current "black rifle" phenomena is not driven very much at all by hunters. This is the realm of the post-apocalyptic crowd who can spend a little or a lot to create the perfect platform (the lego effect) to take on zombies, looters, democrats their neighbors, or whomever. And before someone's head explodes, I am not saying everyone who owns a black rifle is a conspiracy nut - as noted, I own two - but there do seem to be a lot of camo-clad types for whom one could get papers at every gun show......... :unsure:
I don't believe anyone on this forum could have said it better!!! We have an Alaskan friend that may could compete with you in this subject matter though!!! He sometimes hunts with frozen herrings!
 
- as noted, I own two

Completely concur with everything in this post and your previous one.

and I also own 2 (and have an additional 3 lowers sitting in the safe collecting dust right now) :)
 
Legal in a lot of states for a long time etc.

Thanks @Red Leg I was not sure. This is where Europe and US are a bit different. For the longest time (until the mid 1960's or so?) semi-autos were generally illegal in most of Europe, and to this day they are still shunned and frowned upon by the older/more traditional generation, although I understand that this is the fastest growing hunting rifles market segment nowadays, albeit in specifically non-military looking form. They are apparently considered the cheaper alternative to European doubles for driven wild boar hunts.

It is pretty clear to me the current "black rifle" phenomena is not driven very much at all by hunters etc.

I totally agree. The zombie blasters, nuclear apocalypse survivors, and other next American revolution patriots probably fund, what? 90%? 95%? of the AR market? I also note the marketing efforts of Remington to make "hunter's ARs" in specifically hunting market oriented calibers and camouflage patterns. I did not even know of the .30 Rem AR until today! It will be interesting to see how long Big Green offers them, they have been know in the past to take chances (import of Remington-branded M98 Zastava) and then adapt to sale volumes.

Thanks for the answer Joe, I first forgot entirely about the Garand, and then I was wondering if somehow the legal framework had had an effect on its adoption in the American hunting field. You have answered both points.

Thanks
Pascal
 
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This is where Europe and US are a bit different. For the longest time (until the mid 1960's or so?) semi-autos were generally illegal in most of Europe, and to this day they are still shunned and frowned upon by the older/more traditional generation, although I understand that this is the fastest growing hunting rifles market segment nowadays, albeit in specifically non-military looking form. They are apparently considered the cheaper alternative to European doubles for driven wild boar hunts.

This is only partially true. Pls allow me to clarify from local European perspective.
Semi autos are banned in countries like UK, Netherland, Norway.
They are not banned in other countries: Italy, Slovenia, Croatia, Check republic, etc
Member states of EU are generally obliged to follow European firearms directive in their own national legistlative. The directive does not ban semi-autos, but member states may impose stricter rules.

Recently, there was very strong initiative from EC (European commision) to ban all semi auto rifles for civilian use, but finally the bill did not pass on that point. So, semi autos remain as legal in some countries on European continent, in most cases with limited magazine capacity.
If I am not mistaken, rifles are limited to 10 rounds per mag by directive, or less if so regulated by member state.

Europe has very good - real hunting, traditional looking, semi auto rifle production on the market, and the rifles are being sold.

I think the most popular are: Benelli ARGO (sold in US as R1), and Browning BAR (in several versions), followed by few others: Sauer 303, Heanel SLB, Heckler and Koch 770, etc. There will be others, but this is what first comes in mind.

As mentioned, they are very good substitute for more expensive double rifle with primary use in driven boar hunts, and only secondary as general purpose hunting rifle.

Most popular calibers of semi auto hunting rifle offered are: 308 win, 30-06, 9.3x62, and very interestingly 300 win mag (for which I really do not see the need in shorter barrel semi autos, and for shorter ranges in driven hunts, but it is available any how)

AR15 platform on the hunting market is not popular in EU, (although present), partly beacuse of long hunting (and rigid) tradition, and general view of how hunting rifles shold look like.

All four (hunting) rifles I mentioned, look really, as hunting rifles.

Tactical look of ar15, generally is not appreciated in hunting community.
So, the black rifles, in Europe find their market in relativelly small practical shooting community (three gun shooting, or similar), but not in hunting community.

Other semiautos ex-mil, mostly used for collections, or local tournamets in old-fashion competition shooting, or plinking at the range are SKS, Yugo SKS, m76 (Yugo version similar to Dragunov), etc... But these are in small numbers.

Generally, semi-auto hunting rifles (Benneli, Browning, Sauer, Haenel, H&K) are present in good numbers, and even appreciated where legal. For hunting, most likely the regulation will be limit for 2 round magazine + 1 in chamber).
For sporting purpose, I think limit is 10 round mag as per latest EU directive, but this to be checked, as I am not 100% certain.

Any way, this is present situation in EU today, on this subject.

My impression is that community of this forum, obviosuly engaged in African hunting, and African hunt is traditon with taste, may find interest of such modern semi autos with taditional look (although not for African safari). Off all of those, my choice would be benelli, as it is easy to strip for maintenance, and has possiblity of changing the barrels. But I am not sayig others are not good. O, please take a look at Sauer 303... Its a beauty!
 
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This is only partially true...
I am not sure what you think was partially true in my brief paragraph, it seems that you are confirming everything I said, and I agree 100% with what you say. Maybe something got lost in translation? No problem :)

One could add Verney Carron Impact, Sauer 303, Merkel SR1, and Pietta Chronos to the European semi-autos Bennelli Argo, Haenel SLB and H&K 630, 770 and SLB 2000 you mentioned, as well as Winchester SXR and Remington 7400 and 750 to the American semi-auto Browning BAR you mentioned. All of them doing their best to look as "traditional" as possible.

The Sauer 303 Classic in particular looks really nice to me:

Sauer 303 Classic.JPG


It comes in .308 Win. // 7x64 // .30-06 Spring. // 8x57 IS // 9,3x62 // .300 Win. Mag. // .338 Win. Mag. all of which would be quite appropriate in African plains, and with a detachable magazine for two rounds with a five-round magazine also available. The 20" barrel may be a bit short to really get the velocity out of the magnum calibers, but it would dang perfect for the 9.3x62 in dense bush.

I would not take my black Armalite AR 10 to Africa, just because I am not a glutton for self-inflicted airline security, airport security, immigration, police, etc. punishment, but I could envision traveling with a Sauer 300 Classic should the semi-auto bug hit me one day, which it has not so far for hunting... I mean, that thing would not be out of place in @Red Leg's gun room, and Lord knows he seems to have nice things in it ;-)
.
 
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I am not sure what you think was partially true in my brief paragraph, it seems that you are confirming everything I said, and I agree 100% with what you say. Maybe something got lost in translation? No problem :)

Yes, you are right! It was my quick typing, my lapsus!
I should use word "practically true" or similar. I noticed the same, just after I was not able to edit...(y) Sorry for my mistake!
 
What do you think about the actual discrimination regarding Black Rifle for hunting?
 
What do you think about the actual discrimination regarding Black Rifle for hunting?

Are you referring to legal ‘discrimination’? Or ‘discrimination’ (if you wish to call it that) by sportsmen who perhaps whilst thinking such rifles are ideal for certain things – would rather not use them for sporting purposes (if only based on aesthetic & sentimental considerations)?
 
Legal discrimination.

In some parts of Africa where there are "conflicts" going on, the last thing I would want to be carrying is anything that would make these guys think I am any part of their conflict or provide any motivation for them to borrow my firearm for themselves.

I will be more than happy to be held discriminate from these fellas. :)
Screen Shot 2018-11-11 at 07.50.01.png
 
We took some plains game with an AR on our last trip to SA. I shot this blesbok at 302 yards. In 223 I'm not sure I'd hunt any game much bigger but for this size it worked great.
32744761_2017389088580378_2600441237022441472_o.jpg
 

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We took some plains game with an AR on our last trip to SA. I shot this blesbok at 302 yards. In 223 I'm not sure I'd hunt any game much bigger but for this size it worked great.
32744761_2017389088580378_2600441237022441472_o.jpg
Interesting dimostration what can do 223R at 300 yards. ;-)
 
Legal discrimination.

Where shooting in Africa is concerned......

As writing to my member of parliament in the UK (or congressman or whatever if in the US) to complain about gun control laws in African countries is unlikely to result in a repeal or beneficial relaxation of those laws I tend not to spend much time considering the injustice.

Nor do I don’t imagine too many professional hunters when meeting a client off the aircraft think: “I wish he’d have brought an AR-15 instead of that M-70 in .375 H&H”
 

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