The Quality of American Firearms...

Chevys, Fords, Toyotas, Mercedes, FIATs and TESLA. We should thank our lucky stars we have so many choices in firearms that can be purchased over the counter.

rookhawk said:

This is what Savage marketing thinks the American wants, so judging the power of marketing and capitalism, I will take this as truth:

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And this is what Tikka thinks the European wants. What out of the box accuracy does Savage guarantee?



So what's your point? Americans want accuracy, and will sacrifice 'pretense' (ie. quality of finish, components and wood) for a price?

Everyone wants an accurate rifle. Europeans just want accuracy and a few other things, ie. quality of finish and components. Plus, again, what does a Savage cost vs a Tikka T3x in the US or Europe for that matter? The Tikka is the European equivalent 'base' model, but I'd bet it's nearly twice the money.

MOA @ 100 yards guaranteed and American made. Also models that have interchangeable barrels.

https://www.tcarms.com/firearms/bolt-action-rifles

@Alistair, There's a smallish subset of American rifle buyers that want more than minute of paper plate accuracy. Don't know if you've ever visited a gun club or range in the U.S. a week before the start of a big game season but at the end of a day, one can fill up a 30 gallon trash can with 10 inch paper plates that have a black magic marker dot in the middle, about three inches in diameter, as an aiming point. As long as they get three holes in that paper plate, they're good to go.

Hogpatrol said:

@Alistair, There's a smallish subset of American rifle buyers that want more than minute of paper plate accuracy. Don't know if you've ever visited a gun club or range in the U.S. a week before the start of a big game season but at the end of a day, one can fill up a 30 gallon trash can with 10 inch paper plates that have a black magic marker dot in the middle, about three inches in diameter, as an aiming point. As long as they get three holes in that paper plate, they're good to go.

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I've not been to the US since I was 2 years old, but that's also the case in the UK as well in fairness! I know a chap who shoots deer out to 200yds in Scotland with an old Parker Hale 'sporterized' 1943 SMLE in .303. Shoots maybe 2MOA, but that's minute of deer in my book!

Worth pointing out before I get hate mail that I'm not necessarily saying Americans want less accuracy than the European shot, or that the rifles are in any way less accurate. I just question the logic that say a Ruger, Remington or Winchester is in some way better accuracy wse than the standard European fare of Tikka, Sako, Blaser, Sauer, CZ etc etc. In my experience any factory rifle from any manufacturer shoots around 1MOA with factory ammo, American, European doesn't matter.

I also maintain that the American shot is less fussed about 'pretty' in rifles and that the price of the 'base' models reflects this. I would also argue that the triggers on American fare are generally a bit worse as well, but that may be personal preference.

Where most of us hunt in America (well, maybe not most, but a lot), 100 yards is a long shot. The deer woods of the eastern half of the U.S. almost always means less than 50 yards, and often much less than that.

And by the way, I'm one of those paper plate guys myself! Every rifle I own is adorned with iron sights and if I can place three shots in a three inch cluster, at 100 yards, I'm more than happy.

CTDolan said:

Where most of us hunt in America (well, maybe not most, but a lot), 100 yards is a long shot. The deer woods of the eastern half of the U.S. almost always means less than 50 yards, and often much less than that.

And by the way, I'm one of those paper plate guys myself! Every rifle I own is adorned with iron sights and if I can place three shots in a three inch cluster, at 100 yards, I'm more than happy.

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Guilty as charged. Hell, in my younger years, I was so poor I sighted in on USED paper plates.

Nice piece on out of the box MOA........

https://www.fieldandstream.com/arti...romise-half-moa-groups-are-good-only-on-paper

Mark, We've come even further since that article was written. I've seen some Savage price leaders shoot 3/8 moa with factory ammo. Bullets and barrels are constantly improving.

Hogpatrol said:

Mark, We've come even further since that article was written. I've seen some Savage price leaders shoot 3/8 moa with factory ammo. Bullets and barrels are constantly improving.

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I think the gist of the article is that the rifles are more accurate than most shooter and when your heart pumping and Buck fever sets in MOA is not going to help you........

I think a big part of the issue is that a good portion of American shooters want to own several rifles but can't afford several higher end rifles. Just look at the wave of economy rifles: Ruger American, Savage Axis, etc... Couple this with the fact that a lot of people don't hunt or hunt their state's deer season and that's it. Some will make a few out of state hunts and fewer still will go on an African Safari or a high end North American hunt (brown bear, Yukon moose....)
I think those that are avid hunters will have a few higher end rifles. That being said, there is nothing wrong with Remington's, Rugers, Weatherbys or whatever, if it works for you. I have no trouble hunting with my 7mm/08 which is an old Remington 788. Probably one of the most basic and ugliest rifles ever made, but shoots .6" groups all day long.
By the way, I have a Montana 1999 in .338 RUM and I really like it. It puts 225gr Swift AFs under an inch. In fact I like it so much that it will will be with me in Namibia next week. I plan on purchasing Montana rifles in .280 Rem and maybe .375 H&H, or .300 Win mag, or .270, or .338 Win mag, or.....

meigsbucks said:

I think a big part of the issue is that a good portion of American shooters want to own several rifles...

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I reckon that is a factor as well. Americans have much more freedom to swap their rifles quickly and easily compared to their compatriots in many EU nations. That results in many Americans owning a lot more rifles generally than the European shot and possibly swapping them more frequently.

As a case in point, here in the UK with our firearms laws, you need a 'slot' for a specific rifles of a defined calibre, say a .270 bolt action. The rifle is then purchased and the serial number linked to that specific slot. You also need a 'good reason' for each gun and only rifles with 'open conditions' or conditions specifying use on deer or other quarry can be used for that purpose.

Ultimately this means that the UK shot is only likely to have a maximum of 2 or 3 hunting rifles in deer calibres ( I have a .270 and a .44Mag lever gun for instance, with a pending slot for 9.3x74r). It is also a ballache to swap rifles. If I want to swap my current .270 for a different .270, I need to sell the current gun, notify the fuzz of the sale, then apply to my local police for a new .270 slot (at a nominal cost), get it approved with the appropriate conditions and then go buy the gun. This takes some time, varying from days to months, depending on the local force. You will also have to have secure storage space or the new gun in an approved cabinet. If the fuzz feel your new 'good reason' is adequately covered by one of your other guns, they can be difficult in granting more slots, although in fairness, there is a fair bit of leeway in most cases and they've never tuned me down.

The net result is that UK shooters tend to buy a small numer of firearms and keep them a reasonably long time. At the very least, the spontaneous purchase of something new and interesting 'just 'cus' is prevented.

As such, the purchase of a rifle in the UK is perhaps more of a big deal than in the US. You don't do it often, you'll be keeping the thing a while and you've had to wait at least a few weeks to get you slots back before you can make the purchase. As such, I reckon Europeans want to substitute 'quality for quantity', at least to some degree. After all, they might want to drop $10,000 equivalent on their firearm collection, just the same as the sportsman in Texas, but that might be spread across 2 or 3 rifles, not 10. They will probably be looking at the gun as more of an 'investment' as well, not to mention possibly saving a bit longer between purchases.

The U.S. is probably the only country in the world where a firearm can be an impulse purchase.

Hogpatrol said:

The U.S. is probably the only country in the world where a firearm can be an impulse purchase.

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+ Canada for rifles (after the first one)

Hogpatrol said:

@Alistair, There's a smallish subset of American rifle buyers that want more than minute of paper plate accuracy. Don't know if you've ever visited a gun club or range in the U.S. a week before the start of a big game season but at the end of a day, one can fill up a 30 gallon trash can with 10 inch paper plates that have a black magic marker dot in the middle, about three inches in diameter, as an aiming point. As long as they get three holes in that paper plate, they're good to go.

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That is absolutely true! MOA is completely not necessary for the the typical deer hunter or deer hunt.

In my experience, most precision rifle shooters who demand the moa or even 1/2 inch moa don't hunt anyway.

Completely agree...

Or those that do hunt and demand that kind of accuracy in their benchrest or precision guns don’t demand it in their hunting rifles..

Most varmint hunters I know want sub moa accuracy as far out as possible. When those groundhogs just give us the top of their heads peeking out of their holes, we need to put those hyperspeed bullets right between the eyeballs. YMMV.

For guys popping prairie dogs I can certainly see value in a 22-250 that will hold 1/2 MOA out to 400...

It’s just not as important to your typical Southeastern US whitetail hunter or Northeastern black bear hunter, etc... (at least not with the guys I have hunted with).. the typical 1 1/2 - 2 MOA 30-30 lever action suits them fine...

I think meisgsbuck and Allistair have hit it on the head, I own a fair amount of rifles, low end to high end, over 240 total. If I could only own 4-5 my collection would be high end only.