Big Bulls, Big Bores, and Iron Sights

TOBY458 · Mar 21, 2018

I was just wondering, how many of you hunt dangerous game, mainly Buffalo, Hippo and Elephant, with iron sights and big bore (45 cal. and over) rifles? I would love to see some pictures of game taken with these rifles. How big of a handicap do you feel the iron sights are on these large animals?

mdwest · Mar 21, 2018

I havent done it yet... but I am contemplating it... So, I am interested in follow this thread..

The plan is to hunt buff in 2019...

Im in the process of building a .458 win mag that I would like to use (assuming when I build it that I can get it "right", and reliable enough to feel confident using it on DG)..

I'm giving serious consideration to just putting NECG express sights on it, and not topping it with an optic.. (although I have a zeiss 1-4x with illuminated reticle available if I end up deciding against this option)..

Shootist43 · Mar 21, 2018

Toby458, I'll bet PH(s) do it very often, if not all the time.

Velo Dog · Mar 21, 2018

TOBY458 said:
I was just wondering, how many of you hunt dangerous game, mainly Buffalo, Hippo and Elephant, with iron sights and big bore (45 cal. and over) rifles? I would love to see some pictures of game taken with these rifles. How big of a handicap do you feel the iron sights are on these large animals?

Hello TOBY458,

Refer to my avatar photo for my one and only such example.
The rifle is an Army & Navy, .450 No2 NE, hammer gun, made just slightly before WW-I or, sometime between the big wars.
It was regulated with 480 gr round nose bullets, as well as any best quality English double costing 15 times as much.
Had to sell it but feel blessed, to have owned it awhile and to have hunted African buffalo and "plains game" with it.

Unfortunately, heavy and / or dangerous game remains at the moment, beyond the reach of my bank account.
However, if I were able to afford it, I'd hunt buffalo each year, perhaps tempering these annual hunts with the occasional tuskless elephant and / or hippo on land.
And, my preference for such pipe-dream adventures would be a fairly un-embellished but properly made ejector double, with single, non-folding wide "V" rear sight blade and large white bead, front sight.
For said buffalo hunting (also elephant and / or hippo on land) my money would go for such a double beginning at, caliber 450/400 NE, up to and including .500 NE.

From my one buffalo experience, I will guess that a low powered scope on a buffalo rifle will give the Hunter some extra opportunities to take a shot in heavy shade , early morning feeble light, etc.
For the one who must take only some tape measure / genetic oddity, I expect they should use a scope, in case of poor light when that one special animal is located.

But for simpletons like me, who are very satisfied with just simply hunting whatever the bush has for us, there is something special about hunting with an open sighted double.
On that note, I also own 3 large bore repeaters (based on the CZ 550 magnum).
They are calibers .416 Rigby, .458 Lott and .500 Jeffery.
None have a scope, only "express sights" as previously described in this rant.
I haven't bagged anything except inanimate targets with this trio but, I would not hesitate to hunt buffalo, elephant and / or hippo on land with any of these open sighted bolt guns.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

TOBY458 · Mar 21, 2018

mdwest said:
I havent done it yet... but I am contemplating it... So, I am interested in follow this thread..

The plan is to hunt buff in 2019...

Im in the process of building a .458 win mag that I would like to use (assuming when I build it that I can get it "right", and reliable enough to feel confident using it on DG)..

I'm giving serious consideration to just putting NECG express sights on it, and not topping it with an optic.. (although I have a zeiss 1-4x with illuminated reticle available if I end up deciding against this option)..

I'm sure a set of quick detachable mounts would be just the ticket. However some rifles feel good with a scope, but then the iron sights don't line up well, or vice versa. I feel a rifle set up this way should have some fairly tall iron sights, so the scope and irons have a similar location in the line of sight. That way the stock would hopefully work for both sighting options.

TOBY458 · Mar 21, 2018

Velo Dog said:
Hello TOBY458,

Refer to my avatar photo for my one and only such example.
The rifle is an Army & Navy, .450 No2 NE, hammer gun, made just slightly before WW-I or, sometime between the big wars.
It was regulated with 480 gr round nose bullets, as well as any best quality English double costing 15 times as much.
Had to sell it but feel blessed, to have owned it awhile and to have hunted African buffalo and "plains game" with it.

Unfortunately, heavy and / or dangerous game remains at the moment, beyond the reach of my bank account.
However, if I were able to afford it, I'd hunt buffalo each year, perhaps tempering these annual hunts with the occasional tuskless elephant and / or hippo on land.
And, my preference for such pipe-dream adventures would be a fairly un-embellished but properly made ejector double, with single, non-folding wide "V" rear sight blade and large white bead, front sight.
For said buffalo hunting (also elephant and / or hippo on land) my money would go for such a double beginning at, caliber 450/400 NE, up to and including .500 NE.

From my one buffalo experience, I will guess that a low powered scope on a buffalo rifle will give the Hunter some extra opportunities to take a shot in heavy shade , early morning feeble light, etc.
For the one who must take only some tape measure / genetic oddity, I expect they should use a scope, in case of poor light when that one special animal is located.

But for simpletons like me, who are very satisfied with just simply hunting whatever the bush has for us, there is something special about hunting with an open sighted double.
On that note, I also own 3 large bore repeaters (based on the CZ 550 magnum).
They are calibers .416 Rigby, .458 Lott and .500 Jeffery.
None have a scope, only "express sights" as previously described in this rant.
I haven't bagged anything except inanimate targets with this trio but, I would not hesitate to hunt buffalo, elephant and / or hippo on land with any of these open sighted bolt guns.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

Something just doesn't feel right about putting a scope on a big bore rifle does it? But I'm sure a person's eyesight would dictate what they need to use more than anything. My eyes aren't what they used to be, but I can still see sights ok with glasses. I'm going to get contact lenses soon, so I hope that helps.

crs · Mar 21, 2018

Note receiver sight on 1895 .405 WCF in pic to the left. This rifle has taken several large beasties with 300 and 400 grain .411 bullets.

Same goes for my 1886 45-90 with an open barrel sight and a tang mounted peep sight from which to choose. From Blackbuck to elephant.

All the game referenced was taken at ranges from 20 yards to 60 yards and the sights used were just fine in daylight at that range. Getting close to game makes it more interesting and allows more precise shooting.

Velo Dog · Mar 21, 2018

TOBY458 said:
Something just doesn't feel right about putting a scope on a big bore rifle does it? But I'm sure a person's eyesight would dictate what they need to use more than anything. My eyes aren't what they used to be, but I can still see sights ok with glasses. I'm going to get contact lenses soon, so I hope that helps.

I agree that truly large bore rifles seem out-of-sorts with a scope on them.
Also, I agree that one's eyesight will dictate one's sighting arrangement.
Yes, I hope your contact lenses will add many years to your hunting with iron sights.
Likewise, my eyes are slowing down these days as well.
(Youth is wasted on the young)

CAustin · Mar 21, 2018

Toby I used a scoped rifle to actually bring the elephant in my avatar down. However, the rifle I took as a backup was an open sight 458 Lott. I fully intended to use the 458 if something happened to the 416 and my son, who lugged that Lott around, had instructions to start shooting if I messed up my shot. Pieter and the second PH had iron sights on their respective 500NE and 470NE.
We will see how the Merkel double does with those iron sights on hippo in July.

Red Leg · Mar 21, 2018

Toby the real question is the guy behind the sights. As clients, we have one overriding responsibility - make that first shot as decisive as it can possibly be by placing the bullet in exactly the right spot. Almost every recent injury or death from a buffalo charge has occurred after the bull was wounded by the client. My experience is, that relatively few hunters today, who are younger than I am, have much experience with open sights. Growing up prowling the back forty with a iron-sighted .22 has pretty much become the subject of Norman Rockwell paintings. I suspect that is why, most American deer hunters transition pretty easily from their scoped 30-06 to a scoped .375. The learning curve is pretty shallow, and when it comes time to make that all important critical first shot they are doing it with a familiar sighting platform.

Obviously, iron sights have worked on buffalo for a long time. If a hunter is willing to devote the time and expense necessary to become absolutely competent with them, then by all means go hunt a buffalo with such a vintage set-up. Just remember, that you will never get a perfect presentation, and you will have to have the self-discipline to walk away from that eighty-yard shot through the jess and shadow that you could have easily made with a scoped .375 or .416 - potentially the only shot that you may get on that hunt.

Getting someone hurt through my mistake weighs pretty heavily on my shoulders. My three buffalo have been taken with a mauser, Blaser R8, and Blaser S2 double rifle - all in .375 and all wearing dismountable scopes. This summer, I'll be using a mauser-based .404 - also scoped. None of those animals gave me a perfect presentation and none was closer than sixty-yards. But, all were hit exactly right by the first bullet. At least two of those shots, I would not have attempted with open sights.

I use dismountable scopes because a follow-up is always possible. In that case, I want to be able to direct a bullet quickly and almost instinctively at something large, in-bound, and angry at ranges measured in feet. Why, I suppose, all those PHs are wandering around Africa without scopes on their rifles.

I would urge you to take a scoped rifle on a first buffalo hunt in Africa. Kill him cleanly, and keep everyone in the party safe. After that, you can make a truly informed opinion about a future iron-sighted bull.

tomahawker · Mar 21, 2018

Game scouts 303, PH's 458, My 450 NE. First shot in the boiler room you can see on the shoulder. Gave him the left on the run a bit far back on the back side and PH gave one. Put one on each hip going straight away and an insurance in bottom chest. Can't stand a rifle scoped or not without irons.

TOBY458 · Mar 21, 2018

Red Leg said:
Toby the real question is the guy behind the sights. As clients, we have one overriding responsibility - make that first shot as decisive as it can possibly be by placing the bullet in exactly the right spot. Almost every recent injury or death from a buffalo charge has occurred after the bull was wounded by the client. My experience is, that relatively few hunters today, who are younger than I am, have much experience with open sights. Growing up prowling the back forty with a iron-sighted .22 has pretty much become the subject of Norman Rockwell paintings. I suspect that is why, most American deer hunters transition pretty easily from their scoped 30-06 to a scoped .375. The learning curve is pretty shallow, and when it comes time to make that all important critical first shot they are doing it with a familiar sighting platform.

Obviously, iron sights have worked on buffalo for a long time. If a hunter is willing to devote the time and expense necessary to become absolutely competent with them, then by all means go hunt a buffalo with such a vintage set-up. Just remember, that you will never get a perfect presentation, and you will have to have the self-discipline to walk away from that eighty-yard shot through the jess and shadow that you could have easily made with a scoped .375 or .416 - potentially the only shot that you may get on that hunt.

Getting someone hurt through my mistake weighs pretty heavily on my shoulders. My three buffalo have been taken with a mauser, Blaser R8, and Blaser S2 double rifle - all in .375 and all wearing dismountable scopes. This summer, I'll be using a mauser-based .404 - also scoped. None of those animals gave me a perfect presentation and none was closer than sixty-yards. But, all were hit exactly right by the first bullet. At least two of those shots, I would not have attempted with open sights.

I use dismountable scopes because a follow-up is always possible. In that case, I want to be able to direct a bullet quickly and almost instinctively at something large, in-bound, and angry at ranges measured in feet. Why, I suppose, all those PHs are wandering around Africa without scopes on their rifles.

I would urge you to take a scoped rifle on a first buffalo hunt in Africa. Kill him cleanly, and keep everyone in the party safe. After that, you can make a truly informed opinion about a future iron-sighted bull.

I definitely plan to use a low powered scope in Africa. I used a scope on my 3 Buffalo bulls in Australia, but could've easily shot any of those with iron sights. I guess I just like the idea of doing it the way Taylor, and the rest of the old time hunters did it.

TOBY458 · Mar 21, 2018

tomahawker said:
View attachment 222325 Game scouts 303, PH's 458, My 450 NE. First shot in the boiler room you can see on the shoulder. Gave him the left on the run a bit far back on the back side and PH gave one. Put one on each hip going straight away and an insurance in bottom chest. Can't stand a rifle scoped or not without irons.

I agree! A rifle definitely needs iron sights to be a complete package. All of my larger caliber rifles have detachable scopes and iron sights. I guess that pretty much makes it where you can choose the set up for the shot you're presented with, IF you have time to make that decision.

stug · Mar 21, 2018

Remember that Taylor advocated a detachable low power scope for those difficult shots. He mentions a couple of animals he would not have got without a scope. Pretty sure he was referring to doubles as well as singles.

Accidental Villain · Mar 22, 2018

Hey @TOBY458 Only shooting a tiny-weeny 416 Rigby here so I am probably not supposed to answer this one but hey,,open sightes is my thing so here goes.
On the contrary, I would feel seriously handicapped by a scope on top of my rifle. (I also use a vintage Rigby,,you just DON`T put a damn scope on such a rifle, seriously!)

Anyways, what advantages do I see with open iron sights,,?;
Unsurpassed field of wiev of course, trackers or something might get in the way. Better overall control of situations and attention to the sides and when needed I can "point and shoot" instinctive shooting. Lock eyes on target and shoot pretty accurate in a fraction of a second (like #8 station at the skeet range). hunting moose I have a lot better control over the dog, so I can shoot safer. There is one less thing that can go wrong (Failing scope, mounts, scope set on wrong magnification etc etc).
Hunting with Wayne of Nyamazana safaris last year I at one point had an attacking elephant at about 10 feet...want a scope ?

I most definitely wouldn't :Finger:

.

We`re all different. Everyone must find the right tools that work for one self. Training, eyesight and what you personally like and prefer is important specially when hunting DG. For most people I think a scope definitely is the right primary sight. I`m trained for it. Shooting some skeet and dynamic pistol (IPSC) and my army training.

TOBY458 · Mar 22, 2018

Accidental Villain said:
Hey @TOBY458 Only shooting a tiny-weeny 416 Rigby here so I am probably not supposed to answer this one but hey,,open sightes is my thing so here goes.
On the contrary, I would feel seriously handicapped by a scope on top of my rifle. (I also use a vintage Rigby,,you just DON`T put a damn scope on such a rifle, seriously!)

Anyways, what advantages do I see with open iron sights,,?;
Unsurpassed field of wiev of course, trackers or something might get in the way. Better overall control of situations and attention to the sides and when needed I can "point and shoot" instinctive shooting. Lock eyes on target and shoot pretty accurate in a fraction of a second (like #8 station at the skeet range). hunting moose I have a lot better control over the dog, so I can shoot safer. There is one less thing that can go wrong (Failing scope, mounts, scope set on wrong magnification etc etc).
Hunting with Wayne of Nyamazana safaris last year I at one point had an attacking elephant at about 10 feet...want a scope ? I most definitely wouldn't.

We`re all different. Everyone must find the right tools that work for one self. Training, eyesight and what you personally like and prefer is important specially when hunting DG. For most people I think a scope definitely is the right primary sight. I`m trained for it. Shooting some skeet and dynamic pistol (IPSC) and my army training.

What in the world can you kill with that small little caliber! Dik Dik?! Hahaha!
The largest caliber I currently own is a 416 as well. So you're not alone!
I agree with your opinion on iron sights being best for close in shots on dangerous game. I guess the real crux would be if a longer shot presented itself on a buffalo, as you could well be giving up some shot opportunities with iron sights. But I guess back only a few years ago, when all anyone had was iron sights, they never missed them.

TOBY458 · Mar 22, 2018

stug said:
Remember that Taylor advocated a detachable low power scope for those difficult shots. He mentions a couple of animals he would not have got without a scope. Pretty sure he was referring to doubles as well as singles.

Can you imagine if Taylor saw the scopes we have today? I wonder if he would've used iron sights at all if he had access to a Leupold 1.5-5 scope....

IvW · Mar 22, 2018

Elephant, Cape Buffalo, Rhino, Hippo on land and Lion.
500 Jeff, 570 gr @ 2350.

Open sights only as this combination is not conducive to scope use!

Granted, only used when needed with devastating results!

Open or iron sights are not a handicap to those who grew up using them and who also use them often at close range when the chips are down.

Clients are better off using low powered scopes though, unless competent with super bore calibers or doubles.

CTDolan · Mar 22, 2018

TOBY458 said:
Can you imagine if Taylor saw the scopes we have today? I wonder if he would've used iron sights at all if he had access to a Leupold 1.5-5 scope....

CTDolan · Mar 22, 2018

Personally, I still prefer open sights and will limit my range and shooting opportunities to accommodate. I also hunt with a bow so I feel no real handicap keeping the range close (actually prefer it...close or not at all).

I grew up shooting open sights (thousands upon thousands upon thousands of rounds, through various rifles, all with open sights). Then I bought a 378 Weatherby and, a bit later, a 300 Weatherby, each of which wore a scope. Then I sold the 378 and 300 rifles and haven't had a scope-sighted rifle since. Nearing 50 years of age, though, perhaps scopes are in my future (or red dot sights). We'll see...

Big Bulls, Big Bores, and Iron Sights

TOBY458

mdwest

Shootist43

Velo Dog

TOBY458

TOBY458

crs

Velo Dog

CAustin

Red Leg

tomahawker

TOBY458

TOBY458

stug

Accidental Villain

TOBY458

TOBY458

IvW

CTDolan

CTDolan

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