SCI Adopts Policy On Captive Bred Lions

billc said:

He can take his time replying to you and you can wait . I am not looking for a reply because is will be bs anyway.

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Shame you never learned any manners Bill. Great way to keep anyone from wanting to share with us here. I'm just happy our feedback has been noted enough for SCI to want to share their opinion here. Hopefully Rick will ignore you, realize that we are mostly a civil group, and continue to share with, and listen to us.

billc said:

He can take his time replying to you and you can wait . I am not looking for a reply because is will be bs anyway.

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Seriously!?! Partner you have some serious issues. It may come as a surprise to you and the outfitter you represent, but I value Rick's opinion much more than yours. But just out of common courtesy, I am willing to give Paw Print the benefit of the doubt that they at least don't want to alienate SCI members. How about let's have a discussion and not a tantrum.

Rick Parsons said:

Folks,

I am new to this forum but I'd like to comment on some of these points. As the CEO of Safari Club International I was involved in all the discussions as our Board reached their position.

The timing of the release of our position had nothing to do with maximizing publicity. We felt that our position was newsworthy to a lot of people in the hunting world and so we released the position as soon as our Board finished meeting, which was on the second day of our four-day Convention. Also, we were getting a lot of questions from all sides about our position, including from other hunting organizations that had already taken positions opposing the hunting of captive-bred lions. Some of those were professional hunter organizations in Africa.

The issue was discussed in great detail by our governing bodies before the position was reached. All aspects were considered. The collective judgement of our Board, which is large and is full of experienced hunters, was that there was a distinction between breeding and hunting an apex predator in a hunting estate setting and the hunting of other species in the same setting.

Our fair chase standards for estate hunting are:

1. The animals hunted must have freely resided on the property on which they are being hunted for at least six months, or longer.
   
   
2. The hunting property shall provide escape cover that allows the animals to elude hunters for extended periods of time and multiple occurrences. Escape cover, in the form of rugged terrain or topography, and/or dense thickets or stands of woods, shall collectively comprise at least 50% of the property.
   
   
3. The animals hunted must be part of a breeding herd that is a resident on the hunted property.
   
   
4. The operators of the preserve must provide freely available and ample amounts of cover, food and water at all times.
   
   
5. Animals that are to be hunted must exhibit their natural flight/survival instincts.
   
   
6. No zoo animals, exhibited animals or tame animals are to be hunted.
   
   
7. Hunting methods employed cannot include driving, herding or chasing animals to awaiting hunters.

I hope this helps everyone understand our stance. We are aware that there are lots of opinions on this.

Rick Parsons, CEO
Safari Club International

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Rick, great that you took the time to respond. Most of us fully understand the balancing act SCI needs to perform. Similar to those we all balance in our personal assessment of hunting ethics. Your sharing this effort to bring some clarity to the situation is laudable and appreciated by the majority of the folks who will read this thread. Thanks!

Joe Taylor/ SCI Life Member

@Rick Parsons

Welcome to AH!

Thank you for taking the time to come here and post. Many of us truly appreciate it!

You may get some blunt feedback since there are many of us who are/were members of SCI that feel ignored over the years. Many of us have let our membership lapse. In my case, 6-8 emails to SCI were completely ignored by your staff with no response.

It doesn't have to be you individually, but it would be nice if someone from SCI would be a member on AH so that SCI would understand the concerns or the positions of a number of your members. Especially since your staff is not necessarily responsive.

Again, Thank You for posting and please feel free to jump in at any time. Your thoughts and opinions are valued, even if they are not completely agreed with.

Red Leg said:

.......... But just out of common courtesy, I am willing to give Paw Print the benefit of the doubt that they at least don't want to alienate SCI members. ......

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Do you wonder if a SCI Booth Application just hit a round file somewhere?

Rick Parsons said:

I hope this helps everyone understand our stance. We are aware that there are lots of opinions on this.

Rick Parsons, CEO
Safari Club International

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Glad you have joined, thanks for posting. You definitely hit the nail on the head with that statement! Good to have an insight into the decision making process at SCI. Provide more clarification when you can. Again, welcome!

billc said:

He can take his time replying to you and you can wait . I am not looking for a reply because is will be bs anyway.

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I saw this kids expression and it just fit. Could not help myself.

@Rick Parsons , welcome to the AH community. I am very happy to see you here and hope you will be a regular contributor. Thank you for taking time to post in this thread.
@Paul Babaz , nice to see you joining in the conversation as well.
I truly believe it will be mutually beneficial to SCI and the members/readership of AH to have you guys participating in the discussions here. Alot of the folks around here are members, former members, or potential future members of SCI. This is a huge target audience for you who at times desperately wishes for greater insight and understanding regarding SCI. Sure, you may take some heat at times, but for the most part the folks here on AH are truly wonderful individuals who believe deeply in conservation. Because we believe deeply in hunting and it’s vital role in conservation, we tend to be a bit emphatic and opinionated at times. I am certain you both can understand and relate to that
Hope to see you guys around much more

billc said:

Rick that is the biggest load of bs I have seen in awhile. You did what you thought would cover your backside. With all the deer and elk that get raised for hunting you should be ashamed of yourself for making anyone animal have a different set of rules. You know dam well some guy throws a few females in with a group of raised deer or elk it is not any different. So many of those deer or elk never get released to be hunted for more then a few weeks maybe a month.You will not watch or check any of those hunts and enter them all in the book.

It was just easy to give in on the lions because they can not be brought back here anyway. Just another reason why I am no longer a sci member. Sci lost it way many years ago and is just a group all about what is easy anymore.

Your either ok with animals being raised to be hunted or not. Anti's don't care by the way and will keep coming even the you caved on raised lions.

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Well, for someone who preaches the sermon of hunter unity on a regular basis, you sure seem to have a propensity for creating division Bill.

@Paul Babaz and @Rick Parsons, welcome to AH. Speaking for myself and only myself, I do have my concerns regarding SCI. But I also would prefer to be part of a solution versus part of the problem. And I don't have any desire to act like a child throwing a temper tantrum on the playground. It is pushing midnight here in Arizona and it's been a long day. I am quite consumed by work through Wednesday next week. And then I will be traveling to New York and from there to Florida before making it back home on the 28th.

So I don't have time to address my concerns at the moment, sleep calls. But in a a couple of weeks, if not sooner, I will send you both a PM with some details. Suffice to say for the moment, that given the question of whether we are better off with or without SCI, I lean to the latter.

Until then, once again welcome to AH, I look forward to a constructive dialogue with SCI leadership as I'm sure most AH members do too.

Glad to see @Rick Parsons and @Paul Babaz joining the conversation. Welcome.

While I may not always agree with your opinions, I always appreciate when all parties participate in the discussion. I look forward to additional contributions from SCI.

PHOENIX PHIL said:

Well, for someone who preaches the sermon of hunter unity on a regular basis, you sure seem to have a propensity for creating division Bill.

@Paul Babaz and @Rick Parsons, welcome to AH. Speaking for myself and only myself, I do have my concerns regarding SCI. But I also would prefer to be part of a solution versus part of the problem. And I don't have any desire to act like a child throwing a temper tantrum on the playground. It is pushing midnight here in Arizona and it's been a long day. I am quite consumed by work through Wednesday next week. And then I will be traveling to New York and from there to Florida before making it back home on the 28th.

So I don't have time to address my concerns at the moment, sleep calls. But in a a couple of weeks, if not sooner, I will send you both a PM with some details. Suffice to say for the moment, that given the question of whether we are better off with or without SCI, I lean to the latter.

Until then, once again welcome to AH, I look forward to a constructive dialogue with SCI leadership as I'm sure most AH members do too.

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Phil, if you are going to be anywhere around Pensacola when you hit Florida, PM me.

Rick Parsons said:

Folks,

Our fair chase standards for estate hunting are:

1. The animals hunted must have freely resided on the property on which they are being hunted for at least six months, or longer.
2. 
   
3. The animals hunted must be part of a breeding herd that is a resident on the hunted property.

Rick Parsons, CEO
Safari Club International

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Welcome to AH Rick.

@Rick Parsons

If you could elaborate on the two points above I would appreciate that as they are not clear to me and may in some way be contradictory.

The way I understand it point nr. 1. is only relevant to the first batch of animals of a certain species introduced to the property.
However it could also mean a minimum of 6 months as for CBL hunts or other properties that buy in animals for the purpose of hunting(elk, sable, kudu), basically any species of which only males are brought in. No African animals can be part of a breeding herd in 6 months the cycle is just too short.

Point nr.3 however will then completely exclude CBL hunts as well as "put and take" of any other species if they were not given the opportunity to be "part of a breeding herd that is resident on the hunted property".

I would appreciate if you could clear this up, many thanks.

Regards
IvW

Rick I will apologize seeing it seems like it was an attack right towards you. It was not meant to be a personal attack on a person at all. It was meant for the list you posted as what makes something ok or not.

My whole problem is most of those rules will really has no way to be enforced and I see it as singling out raised lions only. Also seems to me to be making some raised animals ok and not others. This is a matter I feel is all or nothing if you want to defend that practice or not. I myself feel it was taken because it was the easy way out at the time.

Yes I will not always be polite or nice with how I say my ideas or points. I am sure you have been hit with worse but I am sure you also understand how when your for something and you feel someone lets you done you want to speak out which I did. For sure not in the nicest way but how I felt.

You will see from after my post how some will like to come at me and that is ok but heaven forbidden I do that to anyone. I am for all hunters be it for raised , stocked ,wild or any other kind. I will fight for the rights of any hunter even if it is something I may never hunt but know if I gave in on hunting it that it would help my cause personally. Like I will never hunt an elephant but know if we stopped it would look better to anti's or most everyday people walking the street. Why because that will just make them come for the next one they like and that would be me being selfish based on I what I would not do personally.

Once again Rick I will apologize for how it came as a direct attack on you and not towards the policy. I am sure if we chatted we would be just find and I would be glad to do so. I would not wanted the sugar coated talking points but truth on what you think and I would do the same.

Enjoy the site as it a good one and hope you can see all the points by everyone not just the few who think they are the only ones who should be heard.

billc said:

Rick I will apologize seeing it seems like it was an attack right towards you. It was not meant to be a personal attack on a person at all. It was meant for the list you posted as what makes something ok or not.

My whole problem is most of those rules will really has no way to be enforced and I see it as singling out raised lions only. Also seems to me to be making some raised animals ok and not others. This is a matter I feel is all or nothing if you want to defend that practice or not. I myself feel it was taken because it was the easy way out at the time.

Yes I will not always be polite or nice with how I say my ideas or points. I am sure you have been hit with worse but I am sure you also understand how when your for something and you feel someone lets you done you want to speak out which I did. For sure not in the nicest way but how I felt.

You will see from after my post how some will like to come at me and that is ok but heaven forbidden I do that to anyone. I am for all hunters be it for raised , stocked ,wild or any other kind. I will fight for the rights of any hunter even if it is something I may never hunt but know if I gave in on hunting it that it would help my cause personally. Like I will never hunt an elephant but know if we stopped it would look better to anti's or most everyday people walking the street. Why because that will just make them come for the next one they like and that would be me being selfish based on I what I would not do personally.

Once again Rick I will apologize for how it came as a direct attack on you and not towards the policy. I am sure if we chatted we would be just find and I would be glad to do so. I would not wanted the sugar coated talking points but truth on what you think and I would do the same.

Enjoy the site as it a good one and hope you can see all the points by everyone not just the few who think they are the only ones who should be heard.

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Dear lord Bill, even in an apology you're unapologetic. Phil was right, please quit preaching how we all need to stick together when you're the most devisive member of this forum. If you'd ever try it you might find that you're more successful being polite and actually accepting responsibility for your actions.

As far as people coming after you goes, you might want to go look in the mirror and ask yourself why that happens. Then stare at the mirror for a really long time while trying to figure out what every situation seems to have in common.

@Pawprint Safaris , Bill is your employee. He represents your company. His actions are a reflection on you as much as a hunt report. There is a pattern.

All, I appreciate the comments and opinions and welcoming Rick and I to AH. This being said, we are all passionate about hunting and because of this there are a lot of viewpoints on everything from method of take, to calibers, brand of equipment, etc. I've seen the cross bow hunters go to battle with vertical bow hunters a few years back in Wisconsin, I've seen the high end gun collectors go after the AR15 guys years back as well. As a coummunity we divide ourselves over differences of opinion when in reality, we should be focused on the big picture which is to protect the freedom to hunt! While HSUS, PETA, Born Free, etc. are organized and united, we are divided. We NEED to be united, regardless of whether you are bird hunter, small game hunter, or big game hunter. It doesn't matter to me whether your prefer dangerous game, or plains game, or whether you hunt with a flintlock, or a fine English double rifle. I am well aware of the arguments on both sides of CBL, and I appreciate the arguments on both sides, but the decision wasn't made based on public opinion.

Lastly, I was corresponding with another member here and went on a bit of a rant which I suggested he share he wanted to. He suggested I share it myself with AH, so I am posting it below. Sorry for the length of this post....

Thanks for the note of support. I had spoke to Rick earlier and encouraged him to get on AH as I believe we should have a presence here, if for nothing else but to dispel the rumors that abound. I will try to be as active as I can on here, and I am sure Rick will as well. Jerome has been great in getting me up to speed and I am grateful.

I'll be the first to say that SCI isn't perfect, but we do catch a lot of flak due to the rumor mill and most originates on another forum where a lot of folks like to pile on without getting all the facts, both sides of the story , or any facts at all. I am happy to speak to anyone and get their feedback on what SCI is doing or not doing. I hear a lot of comments about SCI (both good and bad), and my reply is always the same... to get involved with the local chapter, or volunteer for a committee, etc because "You can choose to get involved and be part of the solution, or sit back, throw stones, and be part of the problem!"

I can't tell you how many times, someone contacts me to tell me about all the things that I'm doing wrong and I typically ask them to get involved on a committee, chapter board, etc. The response is usually the same... "I don't have time...." Really? I have a full time career, 3 daughters, ages 21, 19, and 15, serve on multiple boards in the hunting/shooting community, but yet I find time.

Despite popular belief, SCI doesn't pay me or any of my volunteer colleagues, if anything it costs money to volunteer. Also, we don't take free hunts, free gear, or equipment, etc. For me, I do this because I want to do what I can to be part of the solution, just the same as I vote in every election, lest if forfeit my right to complain about the outcome if it doesn't go the way I want. If I'm not involved, it makes it difficult for me to sit back and be a Monday morning quarterback.

Apologies for the rant, but the owner of another blog has been invited by me to serve on a committee, attend a board meeting, etc. , just to see first hand what SCI is doing and what the facts are, but I've yet to even get a reply.

I appreciate you and everyone here for being so welcoming to Rick and I, and appreciate you being an SCI Member, and hope we can live up to your expectations, because I will so my best. As a hunting community we need to stick together, we may not agree on everything, but I'm pretty sure we agree on 95%, and that should be enough to work on together! Please feel free to reach out anytime to let us know how we can help, or give us a critique, help spread the word, etc.

Good hunting, Paul

p.s. You all can feel free to share my manifesto with all of AH if you'd like. I'm proud to be a hunter and proud to do my part.

Paul Babaz said:

All, I appreciate the comments and opinions and welcoming Rick and I to AH. This being said, we are all passionate about hunting and because of this there are a lot of viewpoints on everything from method of take, to calibers, brand of equipment, etc. I've seen the cross bow hunters go to battle with vertical bow hunters a few years back in Wisconsin, I've seen the high end gun collectors go after the AR15 guys years back as well. As a coummunity we divide ourselves over differences of opinion when in reality, we should be focused on the big picture which is to protect the freedom to hunt! While HSUS, PETA, Born Free, etc. are organized and united, we are divided. We NEED to be united, regardless of whether you are bird hunter, small game hunter, or big game hunter. It doesn't matter to me whether your prefer dangerous game, or plains game, or whether you hunt with a flintlock, or a fine English double rifle. I am well aware of the arguments on both sides of CBL, and I appreciate the arguments on both sides, but the decision wasn't made based on public opinion.

Lastly, I was corresponding with another member here and went on a bit of a rant which I suggested he share he wanted to. He suggested I share it myself with AH, so I am posting it below. Sorry for the length of this post....

Thanks for the note of support. I had spoke to Rick earlier and encouraged him to get on AH as I believe we should have a presence here, if for nothing else but to dispel the rumors that abound. I will try to be as active as I can on here, and I am sure Rick will as well. Jerome has been great in getting me up to speed and I am grateful.

I'll be the first to say that SCI isn't perfect, but we do catch a lot of flak due to the rumor mill and most originates on another forum where a lot of folks like to pile on without getting all the facts, both sides of the story , or any facts at all. I am happy to speak to anyone and get their feedback on what SCI is doing or not doing. I hear a lot of comments about SCI (both good and bad), and my reply is always the same... to get involved with the local chapter, or volunteer for a committee, etc because "You can choose to get involved and be part of the solution, or sit back, throw stones, and be part of the problem!"

I can't tell you how many times, someone contacts me to tell me about all the things that I'm doing wrong and I typically ask them to get involved on a committee, chapter board, etc. The response is usually the same... "I don't have time...." Really? I have a full time career, 3 daughters, ages 21, 19, and 15, serve on multiple boards in the hunting/shooting community, but yet I find time.

Despite popular belief, SCI doesn't pay me or any of my volunteer colleagues, if anything it costs money to volunteer. Also, we don't take free hunts, free gear, or equipment, etc. For me, I do this because I want to do what I can to be part of the solution, just the same as I vote in every election, lest if forfeit my right to complain about the outcome if it doesn't go the way I want. If I'm not involved, it makes it difficult for me to sit back and be a Monday morning quarterback.

Apologies for the rant, but the owner of another blog has been invited by me to serve on a committee, attend a board meeting, etc. , just to see first hand what SCI is doing and what the facts are, but I've yet to even get a reply.

I appreciate you and everyone here for being so welcoming to Rick and I, and appreciate you being an SCI Member, and hope we can live up to your expectations, because I will so my best. As a hunting community we need to stick together, we may not agree on everything, but I'm pretty sure we agree on 95%, and that should be enough to work on together! Please feel free to reach out anytime to let us know how we can help, or give us a critique, help spread the word, etc.

Good hunting, Paul

p.s. You all can feel free to share my manifesto with all of AH if you'd like. I'm proud to be a hunter and proud to do my part.

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Paul,

Thanks for sharing this publically. For me it goes a long way and I appreciate not only your openness and honesty, but your passion and willingness to do the work.

As I've said to you privately, please let me know what I can do to help. We need additional leadership desperately, and I like what I've heard from you.

Royal

Royal27 said:

Paul,

Thanks for sharing this publically. For me it goes a long way and I appreciate not only your openness and honesty, but your passion and willingness to do the work.

As I've said to you privately, please let me know what I can do to help. We need additional leadership desperately, and I like what I've heard from you.

Royal

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Thanks Royal, the bottom line is that not everyone will agree on everything, but that doesn't mean we can band together to work on a common goal!

Paul Babaz said:

All, I appreciate the comments and opinions and welcoming Rick and I to AH. This being said, we are all passionate about hunting and because of this there are a lot of viewpoints on everything from method of take, to calibers, brand of equipment, etc. I've seen the cross bow hunters go to battle with vertical bow hunters a few years back in Wisconsin, I've seen the high end gun collectors go after the AR15 guys years back as well. As a coummunity we divide ourselves over differences of opinion when in reality, we should be focused on the big picture which is to protect the freedom to hunt! While HSUS, PETA, Born Free, etc. are organized and united, we are divided. We NEED to be united, regardless of whether you are bird hunter, small game hunter, or big game hunter. It doesn't matter to me whether your prefer dangerous game, or plains game, or whether you hunt with a flintlock, or a fine English double rifle. I am well aware of the arguments on both sides of CBL, and I appreciate the arguments on both sides, but the decision wasn't made based on public opinion.

Lastly, I was corresponding with another member here and went on a bit of a rant which I suggested he share he wanted to. He suggested I share it myself with AH, so I am posting it below. Sorry for the length of this post....

Thanks for the note of support. I had spoke to Rick earlier and encouraged him to get on AH as I believe we should have a presence here, if for nothing else but to dispel the rumors that abound. I will try to be as active as I can on here, and I am sure Rick will as well. Jerome has been great in getting me up to speed and I am grateful.

I'll be the first to say that SCI isn't perfect, but we do catch a lot of flak due to the rumor mill and most originates on another forum where a lot of folks like to pile on without getting all the facts, both sides of the story , or any facts at all. I am happy to speak to anyone and get their feedback on what SCI is doing or not doing. I hear a lot of comments about SCI (both good and bad), and my reply is always the same... to get involved with the local chapter, or volunteer for a committee, etc because "You can choose to get involved and be part of the solution, or sit back, throw stones, and be part of the problem!"

I can't tell you how many times, someone contacts me to tell me about all the things that I'm doing wrong and I typically ask them to get involved on a committee, chapter board, etc. The response is usually the same... "I don't have time...." Really? I have a full time career, 3 daughters, ages 21, 19, and 15, serve on multiple boards in the hunting/shooting community, but yet I find time.

Despite popular belief, SCI doesn't pay me or any of my volunteer colleagues, if anything it costs money to volunteer. Also, we don't take free hunts, free gear, or equipment, etc. For me, I do this because I want to do what I can to be part of the solution, just the same as I vote in every election, lest if forfeit my right to complain about the outcome if it doesn't go the way I want. If I'm not involved, it makes it difficult for me to sit back and be a Monday morning quarterback.

Apologies for the rant, but the owner of another blog has been invited by me to serve on a committee, attend a board meeting, etc. , just to see first hand what SCI is doing and what the facts are, but I've yet to even get a reply.

I appreciate you and everyone here for being so welcoming to Rick and I, and appreciate you being an SCI Member, and hope we can live up to your expectations, because I will so my best. As a hunting community we need to stick together, we may not agree on everything, but I'm pretty sure we agree on 95%, and that should be enough to work on together! Please feel free to reach out anytime to let us know how we can help, or give us a critique, help spread the word, etc.

Good hunting, Paul

p.s. You all can feel free to share my manifesto with all of AH if you'd like. I'm proud to be a hunter and proud to do my part.

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Well said.

Paul Babaz said:

............... I am well aware of the arguments on both sides of CBL, and I appreciate the arguments on both sides, but the decision wasn't made based on public opinion.
......... .

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Paul, Welcome to AH.
Thanks for entering the discussion.
This thread has the possibilities of going so far beyond a News releases or static statements. Discussion and discourse are going to be the solution. IMHO.
Thanks for entering the discussion.

Earlier in the thread I replied to Rick about the "distinction" made by the Board regarding CBL. I think that is actually the important discussion point to assist everyone understanding the policy decision.

IdaRam said:

@Rick Parsons ........
@Paul Babaz .... This is a huge target audience for you who at times desperately wishes for greater insight and understanding regarding SCI. ...........

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I look forward to the discussion!

BRICKBURN said:

I saw this kids expression and it just fit. Could not help myself.
View attachment 218100

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And I won’t sue for copyright enfringement. But if it takes off, I want my cut.