404 jeffery vs 416 Rigby

Paul Homsy · Feb 5, 2018

Postoak,

My data varies from a calculator because I do not include recoil impulse which online calculators do include. They can be more precise IF all the data is correct. Mine is an intermediate data that does not take anything but RAW elements into account. Simpler and more to my taste. I find that online calculators aren't always on the mark.

I stick to something I've known for years, and that I know how to do. Without taking into account, efficient versus high intensity cartridges, recoil impulse, stock fit, stock material, powder burning rate, material of bullet, (density of metal) and all types of data that I don't know how to calculate or incorporate and I don't find all that useful. To me it's simply to know what I can shoot or what next I can buy and be comfortable with and what is out of my comfort zone because it exceeds a level of recoil I am not exposed to regularly. It comes down to: how many pounds on my shoulder...In other words, uncomplicated, free recoil.

Pardon me, I said that I didn't calculate recoil velocity and corrected that part, I actually do. I don't calculate impulse and wouldn't know how to do it.

416Tanzan · Feb 5, 2018

If someone wants a cartridge and rifle that handles easily with "minimum" recoil at this level, then the 416Ruger is truly the biggest bang for the buck these days. It will match and exceed factory 404 rounds.

However, if someone is a handloader, then the 416Rigby is far and away the most flexible and useful cartridge. A person can go from traditional loads ALL THE WAY to 416Weatherby loads. The limit is just the recoil that a hunter wants to put up with.

So traditional ballistics in a small package---get a 416Ruger
Handloaded superloads---get a 416Rigby.

postoak · Feb 5, 2018

Hallgeir Gravrak, if you are seating the bullets out to the same OAL, then you aren't reducing the case interior at all are you? At any rate, if the rifle kicks like a donkey I'd either load down to 2100 fps or, if it doesn't have a 1 inch thick rubber pad on it, definitely put one on.

Paul Homsy -- brainiac!

Paul Homsy · Feb 5, 2018

Postoak,

Thanks man, whatever is left between the ears at this late stage

Hallgeir Gravråk · Feb 5, 2018

postoak said:
Hallgeir Gravrak, if you are seating the bullets out to the same OAL, then you aren't reducing the case interior at all are you? At any rate, if the rifle kicks like a donkey I'd either load down to 2100 fps or, if it doesn't have a 1 inch thick rubber pad on it, definitely put one on.

Paul Homsy -- brainiac!

I have put on a 1" Pachmayer deccelarator and it helps a lot, and the rifle is a light weight rifle 7 lbs with scope.
In my load I set the bullet to the schrinking line, comparing with the original 404 Jeffery wich is 89,5 mm Col, I`m seating the bullet 5mm deeper, and the Col is 84,5mm with a very light crimp.
I will test more loads and powder maybe I can optimize the cartridge. N-140 powder is a relative fast burning powder. same as Hodgon H380, Reloader 15 and Ramshot Big Game powder.
I could use H4350.

Hallgeir Gravråk · Feb 5, 2018

postoak said:
Hallgeir Gravrak, if you are seating the bullets out to the same OAL, then you aren't reducing the case interior at all are you? At any rate, if the rifle kicks like a donkey I'd either load down to 2100 fps or, if it doesn't have a 1 inch thick rubber pad on it, definitely put one on.

Paul Homsy -- brainiac!

My 404 Cartridge with a 400 grs Woodleigh RNSP, I have just trimmed the neck the case is as originally.

postoak · Feb 5, 2018

Hallgeir Gravrak - 7 pound .416 Rigby -- there is your problem! I have a 7 1/4 7 mm Remington Magnum that gives me a bit of a thump. It was almost universally agreed in the other thread that the ideal weight for a .416 was 10 1/2 pounds.

Hallgeir Gravråk · Feb 5, 2018

I know, thats the reason for the kick, but I handle it, need to be used to be kicked.
I can put in a kickstop in the stock and the weight will increase a little bit and the kickstop is also preventing the kick.
I also have a Ruger RSM in 375 H&H Mag this one weights about 10,5 lbs, this is lovely to shoot.

Paul Homsy · Feb 5, 2018

7 lbs with scope... If you're able to keep accuracy more power to you.
Impressive.

Very nice Mauser rifle.

Rule 303 · Feb 5, 2018

One thing that does affect recoil is the burn rate of the powder. To get the same velocities with different powders you need different charges. I know with the 410 grain bullet in front of Rigby AR2213sc kicks a hell of a lot harder and sharper then the same bullet in front of AR2209, a faster powder. 105 grains of AR2213sc compared to 96 grains of AR2209.

Others have reported the reverse effect in different cases. that is the slower powder with more powder kicks less than the faster powder. Go figure.

Paul Homsy · Feb 5, 2018

Rule 303, you're correct. The burn rate does affect recoil but it's difficult to quantify without proper instruments in a controlled environment. The vast majority of recoil calculations deal with the weight of the powder charge, not its burn rate.

The combustion rate does affect perceived recoil, not from what I understand, actual recoil. The combustion rate with a fast powder creates a short burst (sharp recoil) or with a slower burning powder a slower burst of equal or even superior recoil spread over more time. The result is recoil delivered differently. One maybe delivered in 1/5000th of a second and the other in 1/3000th...Something like that. One feels sharp the other like a big shove even if in actual pounds of recoil it exceeds the faster burst.

Hallgeir Gravråk · Feb 5, 2018

Do you think that I have a hard recoil because I use a relative fast burning powder, comparing with standard powder for 404 Jeffery?
I`ve moved my self into unknown ground loading this 404 wildcat.

Paul Homsy · Feb 5, 2018

It's possible. I am not qualified to give you a good answer. Most of the powders I see used for the 404 seem to be slightly on the faster side. I think the weight of your rifle has more of a bearing on the sharp recoil you feel. A 7 lbs 404 including scope is no joke. I may be wrong but that level of recoil affects the whole system, not just the shooter.

I just realized you indicate you use faster burning powders than standard 404 powders. This would definitely have an effect on recoil, depending how much powder you use.

stug · Feb 5, 2018

My .404 Jeffery is 9.5lbs, unscoped, open sights only. The load is 84gr ADI2209/H4350 with a 400gr Woodleigh RNSN for 2340fps. Recoil is there, but fine.
I would add some mass to the rifle or load down to 2140ish fps as suggested.

sierraone · Feb 5, 2018

Any of you that shoot a 7 pound .416 Rigby, unless severely down loaded, or .404 J for that matter, need to see a doc, for many reasons!

IvW · Feb 5, 2018

7lbs is too light for these calibers! You can change what you like, powders, bullets, velocity etc. it aint gonna solve the problem.

The only recoil reducer I can think of in this case is a member of the DG gang charging at close range, I bet I won't notice the recoil! For practicing I have my doubts though!

Rule 303 · Feb 6, 2018

Paul Homsy, what you say is correct in theory but this does not equate to reality. The slower powder in the 416 Rigby does come back harder and faster, no mistake about it. There is too big a difference in the felt recoil for it to be a mere perception. One reason I think that may have some bearing on this is case volume used. That is the slower powder is a heavier charge so fills more of the case volume. This in turn effects the burn rate and can possible cause the slower powder to burn faster????

I do not know what powder Hornady uses in their factory loaded 416 Rigby but their 400 grain loads kick harder and sharper then my loads with AR2209 and my loads are 100fps faster. In their case it could well be a combination of the bullet and powder.

Stock design and material can have a marked effect on felt recoil. I have a Rem 700 SPS in 375H&H. Scoped weight it is 2 pound lighter than the CZ550 I had in 375 H&H and the felt recoil is way lower in the Rem. The cheap synthetic stock absorbs a lot of the recoil.

Hallgeir Gravråk · Feb 6, 2018

The best for this rifle had been a weight as my Ruger RSM, the Ruger is weighing 10,5lbs, it`s heavy but very nice to shoot.
My Mauser in cal 404 has a standard original Mauser barrel, not the tickest barrel, the stock is made of walnut.
My scope on these rifle are a Leopold VXR 2-7x33, this scope are not heavy, i think about 1 lbs

Paul Homsy · Feb 6, 2018

Rule 33, the 416 Rigby takes a lot of powder, the slower the powder, the more it can take, it will kick one way or another. Comes a point where the subtleties of feeling real or perceived recoil are out the window. These can be more felt in a 375 H&H, or mild loads in a 404 Jeffery in my opinion, once past a certain level of recoil, they all kick. The Rigby is up there. This is my shoulder talking.

I am 100% with you on the cheap synthetic stocks absorbing "a lot of recoil". I've owned five Weatherbys over the years, two 340s and three 300s. All Mark Vs except for one I used as a scabbard gun, a Vanguard that had one of those stocks you describe and was amazingly comfortable to shoot and very accurate. These stocks flex and some will say that it can affect accuracy, it's true, but not always. I also find their wood stock to be easier to take than some of their synthetic offerings. Stock fit is crucial. No argument there.

I don't know what Hornady uses in their loads in 416 Rigby. I haven't shot it. As you mention the recoil could be a combination of the bullets they use and the powder. It's not uncommon.

Paul Homsy · Feb 6, 2018

Hallgeir Gravrak, I have an older VX scope 2-7x33. that I bought in 1981 which has served me well since. I believe it weighs 13 ounces. With mounts, if it is a similar scope to yours which sounds more recent by the description, you should be just around 20 ounces.

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