SCI Adopts Policy On Captive Bred Lions

Royal27 said:

Fair point, except they are never left long enough for that to occur.

My point is, if outfitters would allow breeding and sustainable hunting at least part of the time that CBL might just be viewed differently.

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I don't disagree.

This is a subject that always brings forth a lot of emotions and opinions. Who’s right and who’s wrong? No one I guess. I remember when I booked my first hunt several years ago in Africa, I was hell bent on not hunting under a fence, I wanted the “real” experience. Little did I know then that would depend completely on my budget. Luckily I hunted a place in Namibia where I was able to experience both. If I had my choice would I always hunt completely unfenced areas, of course. Those who can afford a free range lion hunt I say fantastic.

For me if I ever hunt lion in most definitely will not be unfenced. But hopefully I can hunt somewhere as close to that experience as possible. Let’s all stick together for the future of our sport.

The one thing I would like to here is how raised lions hurt wild lions. Every time I hear some one have a problem with cbl it is all about ethics or fenced areas. Why do we as a group always need to say why we are ok with a certain kind of hunting.

If we would stick together and finally show we are not going to bend over backwards to make others feel good about what we do we just may win sometimes.

Instead of all the we hunt for this reason or another just say we like to hunt and do what we can to hunt. Stop the we all need to do it this way or your not hunting. We need to as hunters or as a group like dsc or sci stop making hunters pick what we all think is ok because of are own likes or dislikes.

Dinsdale said:

Make that two...also a life member.

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While I'm not a life member, I'm with you guys on the "win for ethical hunting" subject. I find all put and take, pen raised/protien infested animal hunting a farce, whether SA, TX, or wherever.

JGRaider said:

While I'm not a life member, I'm with you guys on the "win for ethical hunting" subject. I find all put and take, pen raised/protien infested animal hunting a farce, whether SA, TX, or wherever.

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You are funny

Graham Hunter said:

You are funny

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How so?

As a life-long Texan who first went deer hunting here 53 years ago, I have a few points about Texas hunting.

I am not an SCI member and will never shoot a record book buck, so it isn't really a world I live in, but I don't think high-fenced deer are eligible for the record book. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Hunting over a corn feeder is not traditional in Texas, as someone stated. When I started hunting no one had heard of a corn feeder. We use them today because hunters have changed. Most of them come from suburban backgrounds and have limited days to hunt. They also have switched from wanting to shoot the first deer or buck deer they see to wanting to shoot at least, a mature deer. This is much harder to accomplish and not likely in a few days of hunting without a feeder or food plot. Before 1950 or so, deer kills in Texas were mostly by ranchers and farmers and were taken in the normal course of their daily work, or it was a suburban hunter doing if it is "brown it's down".

Today's put-and-take operations are usually small acreage situations -- usually under 500 acres. If you are hunting a large piece of land, it may be high fenced but is probably not put-and-take.

I've noticed a change has taken place on the Texas hunting forums in recent years. Someone will post a photo of a huge buck they've taken and there is very mild praise of it unless the words "low fence" or "free range" are mentioned. Also a few years back when someone posted a relatively modest deer, there was a certain contempt shown. I don't see that contempt as much now because people realize that the deer was at least not put-and-take.

As for the recent SCI change, I'm curious whether they allow advertising or booths of actual put-and-take deer operations. I would think that most of these high dollar places with booths are not canned hunts as put-and-take is certainly cheaper than naturally raised game.

As someone who is a possible client for lion down the road and who MAY opt for a lion behind a high fence for my first one, I can say that an SCI convention would not be a place I would go to find a hunt. I'm old, but even I consider these conventions to be something of anachronisms. I am going to look on the web for a hunt where I can compare different hunts and take my own good time doing so.

postoak said:

As for the recent SCI change, I'm curious whether they allow advertising or booths of actual put-and-take deer operations. I would think that most of these high dollar places with booths are not canned hunts as put-and-take is certainly cheaper than naturally raised game.

As someone who is a possible client for lion down the road and who MAY opt for a lion behind a high fence for my first one, I can say that an SCI convention would not be a place I would go to find a hunt. I'm old, but even I consider these conventions to be something of anachronisms. I am going to look on the web for a hunt where I can compare different hunts and take my own good time doing so.

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Interesting position to take. My first question would, be have you ever been to one of the shows? There is no other opportunity on the planet where one can meet with actual outfitters and discuss potential destinations worldwide like DSC and SCI. Those outfitters run the gambit from fenced Bongo in Texas through the wildest environments still remaining on the planet. Attendance is growing and not shrinking. An interesting characteristic for, as you put it, an "anachronism."

And a caution on your web search. Anyone today can build a great website. Nothing quite like sizing up an outfitter in person at a place like Dallas or Las Vegas.

In my experience, "put and take" hunts are typically quite expensive. People are taking a short cut to a "trophy class" animal. Whether a 200 class Texas whitetail or a 40+ cape buffalo bull behind a fence in the RSA, shooters with means are paying for certainty. It isn't cheap - - - at all. And not my cup of tea. Other fenced operations in Texas and South Africa are large enough to support self sustaining herds of various species (to include self-sustaining herds of cape buffalo). This is a different hunting (and cost) experience altogether. It is not "put and take" shooting. And of course there are still wilderness areas like Mozambique. All are represented at the shows. Just saying.

Folks have been intensively managing whitetail in Texas for a very long time. Some of it was and is still done on large low-fenced properties like King Ranch. Selective harvest has been part of that effort for as long as I can remember which is nearly six decades. That selective harvest was made possible by food plots, cut senderos where needed, and supplemental feed and water. Sure, a lot of ranchers were shooting food on their own ranches, but managing whitetail really sort of began here in Texas - and not just yesterday.

Well, sierraone, you get to a certain age and things that have been done a long time or seem like tradition don't seem that way to you!

I live about 3 miles from the site of the Houston convention and went once. I wasn't impressed and also could see myself rushed into making a decision that I might come to regret. Now that the convention has moved to downtown Houston I'm sure I will never go again. Of course I understand the Houston show doesn't compare to the Dallas one.

We have hunting forums like this one where we can ask about our possible choices, If people don't want to answer in public, they PM.

I disagree about relative cost, you can buy a 200 inch bred buck for about $8000. Opportunity is 100 percent. In fact you will be shown a photo of the animal you are going to shoot! You may get one that isn't bred for that, either low fence,or high fence but otherwise natural, but chances are it will take you several hunts to see one that size and those hunt costs add up. Or you may be lucky and get one on your first hunt. And isn't a CBL lion much cheaper than a wild one?

postoak said:

Well, sierraone, you get to a certain age and things that have been done a long time or seem like tradition don't seem that way to you!

I live about 3 miles from the site of the Houston convention and went once. I wasn't impressed and also could see myself rushed into making a decision that I might come to regret. Now that the convention has moved to downtown Houston I'm sure I will never go again. Of course I understand the Houston show doesn't compare to the Dallas one.

We have hunting forums like this one where we can ask about our possible choices, If people don't want to answer in public, they PM.

I disagree about relative cost, you can buy a 200 inch bred buck for about $8000. Opportunity is 100 percent. In fact you will be shown a photo of the animal you are going to shoot! You may get one that isn't bred for that, either low fence,or high fence but otherwise natural, but chances are it will take you several hunts to see one that size and those hunt costs add up. Or you may be lucky and get one on your first hunt. And isn't a CBL lion much cheaper than a wild one?

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Hi Postoak, I think your response was meant for @Red Leg but I don't mind responding to you. I am 65 and started going to DSC in 1990 when it was held at the Hyatt Hotel at DFW. Took my then 13 yr old son for his first time in 1991. Even though I am a member of SCI, I have never been to one of their conventions and doubt that I ever do. Just too far away when Dallas is much closer. Have never been to the Houston show even though I have several friends in the area thanks to this forum. And an $8000 deer? Never when I can go to Africa for some of the inexpensive animals for less money. And yes I know some of them cost a lot more. I do agree with RedLeg that you, or I could probably find an outfitter at DSC to hunt any animal any where in the world if that is your goal. Good luck with your decision to hunt a lion wherever that adventure may take you!!! And yes you can learn about most anything Africa in this forum!!!

postoak said:

As for the recent SCI change, I'm curious whether they allow advertising or booths of actual put-and-take deer operations. I would think that most of these high dollar places with booths are not canned hunts as put-and-take is certainly cheaper than naturally raised game.

As someone who is a possible client for lion down the road and who MAY opt for a lion behind a high fence for my first one, I can say that an SCI convention would not be a place I would go to find a hunt. I'm old, but even I consider these conventions to be something of anachronisms. I am going to look on the web for a hunt where I can compare different hunts and take my own good time doing so.

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SCI allows put and take outfitters to advertise and donate. They don't really vet anyone, IMO. Wasn't there an outfitter who had numerous complaints and was still donating and advertising with SCI? I need to go back and find that thread.

I think the shows are worth while to meet some people and get some additional information. I am not sure I would book on the spot but if gives you some idea of the outfitter, possible PH/guide and if you are going to get along. Always pays to do reasearch and check with references.

I don't attend the big shows but I do go to the NRA Sport Show in Harrisburg, PA. There are quite a few Africa outfitters and even some game farm owners and PHs that have booths and I've had good and informative conversations with some of them.
As been posted, fancy websites sometimes don't equate to the real deal.

I think my mention of the web was misleading. I wouldn't, and don't, randomly browse web sites. I get my initial information from forums like this and only then go look at a mentioned web site. I depend on fellow forums members, their vetting, their hunt reports, and their PMs for my information. I think this is a good method.

LivingTheDream said:

SCI allows put and take outfitters to advertise and donate. They don't really vet anyone, IMO. Wasn't there an outfitter who had numerous complaints and was still donating and advertising with SCI? I need to go back and find that thread.

I think the shows are worth while to meet some people and get some additional information. I am not sure I would book on the spot but if gives you some idea of the outfitter, possible PH/guide and if you are going to get along. Always pays to do reasearch and check with references.

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Frontier Safaris has a booth at SCI every year, and were there again this year. A quick google search will show numerous lawsuits in the past against this crook, yet SCI still allows him to be there.

I just returned from the SCI show in Vegas last night (my first one) and have to say it is obvious from reading all of the comments on this forum there are a lot of opinions on both sides of the fence, no pun intended.

As I was heading to the show I received the email that started this thread and as a Hunter was a little gut shot that the group I felt like having the best voice for Hunters has taken the pressure from the Antis and caved. I shared the email with several of the exhibitors as they were unaware of this release and I would like to have recorded for their responses. The common response was they thought this would hurt our industry and in ALL cases they were quick to bring up that the majority of sponsors at the show were showing, selling, mounting and promoting ranched animals.

Many of the exhibitors I spoke to about deer, elk, stag etc.. when asked how large the property was would tell me and be quick to follow up with additional descriptions of heavy brush, rolling hills, hiding areas, etc.. made it a challenging hunt. I found it interesting that during one of the live auctions how the speaker praised one of the exhibitors as a long time supporter and donator to SCI and without companies like them we would not be able to do what they do for hunters. I had met with this exhibitor earlier and was told they offered Red Stag and Elk hunts on a property that was 600 acres and you would surely get the trophy size animal you want to harvest. The exhibitor was extremely nice to talk to, offered nice accommodations and for the hunter that wants to hunt here probably a great experience.

This is the first paragraph from SCI on the policy that was adopted on Captive Bred Lions on Feb. 2, 2018.
"Considering that the practice of the captive breeding of lions for the purpose of hunting has doubtful value to the conservation of lions in the wild, and considering that such hunting is not consistent with SCI's criteria for estate hunting, the SCI Board has adopted the following policy:"

SCI opposes the hunting of African lions bred in captivity.
This policy takes effect on Feb. 4, 2018 and applies to hunts taking place after adoption of the policy and to any Record Book entry related to such hunts.
SCI will not accept advertising from any operator for any such hunts, or will SCI allow operators to sell hunts for lions bred in captivity at the SCI Annual Hunter's Convention.

I am a little confused that one animal can be hunted in a 600 acre enclosure and that meets the guidelines for SCI and the animal I hunted in an 18,000 acre enclosure can receive such a position from SCI.

Personally, I don't care about putting anything in the record book. I hunt because I love to hunt and that will never change.

If you go to the SCI site and look up WHO WE ARE here is what you will see:

Protecting hunter's rights and promoting wildlife conservation, SCI's two areas of focus, historically has been the interest of hundreds of individuals long before SCI was established.

I ask them to protect All of our rights and not give the Antis another win like they did here.

LivingTheDream said:

SCI allows put and take outfitters to advertise and donate. They don't really vet anyone, IMO. .........

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It is completely "buyer beware" event and they state the fact at multiple points in documentation.

A restriction on donations. A minor screening, I guess.



"....SCI in no event be held responsible for their accuracy"

Catchaser said:

I am a little confused that one animal can be hunted in a 600 acre enclosure and that meets the guidelines for SCI and the animal I hunted in an 18,000 acre enclosure can receive such a position from SCI.

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Not knowing the details of your hunt, but as a comment to pen raised lions in general this is what SCI is using to distinguish the difference.

“The animal must have freely resided on the hunted property and the area to be hunted for six months, or longer. The animal must be part of a breeding herd that is resident on the hunted property.”

Releasing an animal, and it should be any animal not just lions days before being shot, is what SCI and DSC have an issue with. And don’t worry, I am sure the practice will continue, it is not a ban, it is not a law, it is an ethical decision made by two hunting organizations. It is also definitely not a win for the anti-hunters. And I am sure operators will somehow circumvent SCI’s decision through some loophole and continue to sell these shootings at the show.

Several of the above posts bring up very interesting points that haven't really been directly discussed.

1. We act like SCI condemning CBL is the end of a great tradition and then end to hunting as we know it. So my question is, when did CBL start as a "normal" practice? It isn't exactly a 500 year old tradition.
2. Assuming we agree CBL is a new tradition and that we should support it does this mean we should support any new fringe way of hunting? And sorry, but in the grand scheme of things CBL is fringe regardless of which side you're on.
3. Is there actually a difference between marketing CBL at the shows and other "put and take." Meaning, if a 400 inch bull elk was advertised at SCI that it was going to be dropped off at high fence ranch 30 days before hunt along with two other bulls and a cow would SCI allow that? I think the answer is no, they would not. To me, there is a subtle difference between blatant disregard for the rules and looking the other way. I don't agree with either, but the blatant disregard has to be dealt with first, and it seems that is what SCI has done, whether you agree with it or not.

Things to think about.... It's complicated and no easy answer. And really, purely by their own rules, SCI should have never allowed CBL in the record books or supported it, or they should have changed their rules for all animals and allow any animal that has been released on a property for at least 72 hours to be allowed. Is that what we truly want?

Catchaser said:

The common response was they thought this would hurt our industry and in ALL cases they were quick to bring up that the majority of sponsors at the show were showing, selling, mounting and promoting ranched animals.

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SCI hasn't come out against ranched animals. They have made a stand against a hunt that as a general rule violates their standard for ranched animals, much more so than any other animal, again as a general rule, there are always exceptions.