404 jeffery vs 416 Rigby

You're very welcome Gert,

I agree and I also think that the 450 grains would be perfect for elan.
I've looked at various 416s and the 404 Jeffery. The 404 seems to be calling.

Is Dr. Kevin Robinson the gentleman who developed the 380 grains bullet in .375 caliber ?

Paul
Yes, Paul , it is the same person. I attended a dangerous game hunting course two weeks back Dr.Kevin Robertson conducted. In his lecture he discussed various types of bullets, bullet construction, bullet penetration and different types of bullets. It really was interesting to learn about all the different aspects of bullets.
In this lecture he pointed out the 404 Jeffery to be the preferred caliber when hunting dangerous game animals . Especially when using a 450 gn bullet at 2150 f/s to 2250 f/s. He believes in heavy bullets at low velocities.
 
I love the idea of a .404 shooting a bullet with an SD of .34 or better - but - I would want to make sure my rifle had a suitable twist rate.

I know there are some .404 rifles out there with 1 in 16.5" twists. I wonder if that twist rate will stabilize a 450gr .404 while is it not only going through the air, but also trying to penetrate a buffalo?

Not claiming experiential expertise on this one...just wondering from a theoretical standpoint.

Did Dr. Robertson delve into the twist-rate issue?

Assuming the proper twist, a 430gr Northfork at 2,200 sounds perfect to me!

Edit: Just read some more, earlier posts and see that the issue of twist rate has been brought up...
 
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I love the idea of a .404 shooting a bullet with an SD of .34 or better - but - I would want to make sure my rifle had a suitable twist rate.

I know there are some .404 rifles out there with 1 in 16.5" twists. I wonder if that twist rate will stabilize a 450gr .404 while is it not only going through the air, but also trying to penetrate a buffalo?

Not claiming experiential expertise on this one...just wondering from a theoretical standpoint.

Did Dr. Robertson delve into the twist-rate issue?

Assuming the proper twist, a 430gr Northfork at 2,200 sounds perfect to me!

Edit: Just read some more, earlier posts and see that the issue of twist rate has been brought up...

Tarbe, yes Dr. Kevin did delve into the twist rate..I think he mentioned 1:14 twist , I can be wrong, it can be 1: 16 as well I did send him an email in regards to the twist rate he preferred ...They use Dzombo solids, 450 gn and the North Fork soft nose in the region of 430 -450 gn .
 
Yes, Paul , it is the same person. I attended a dangerous game hunting course two weeks back Dr.Kevin Robertson conducted. In his lecture he discussed various types of bullets, bullet construction, bullet penetration and different types of bullets. It really was interesting to learn about all the different aspects of bullets.
In this lecture he pointed out the 404 Jeffery to be the preferred caliber when hunting dangerous game animals . Especially when using a 450 gn bullet at 2150 f/s to 2250 f/s. He believes in heavy bullets at low velocities.

Gert,

I agree entirely with the idea of a larger bore with heavy bullets at moderate speed. It's a proven combination and the 404 is an excellent balance of moderate bore size and heavy bullets to achieve this.
 
Tarbe, yes Dr. Kevin did delve into the twist rate..I think he mentioned 1:14 twist , I can be wrong, it can be 1: 16 as well I did send him an email in regards to the twist rate he preferred ...They use Dzombo solids, 450 gn and the North Fork soft nose in the region of 430 -450 gn .


Gert,

The standard twist rate for the 404 actually is 1/14.
If it is slower I'm not sure it would stabilize the 450 grains and heavier bullets.
 
Paul, the standard proof barrels twist is 1:16.54 ( according to Pierre van der Walt : African Dangerous Game Cartridges. The 1;14 twist is available if requested from barrel makers, a person, Frans Odendaal is making 404 Jeffery barrels with a 1:14 twist here in South Africa.
I will determine my 404 Jeffery`s twist rate coming Monday and let you know ...it will give me some insight regarding the use of a 450 gn or not ....(y)(y)
 
Gert,

Thank you for the information. I am surprised the standard rate of twist is that slow. The standard for the 416s is 1/14, I thought erroneously that it would be the same for the 404. Personally I would request a 1/14 twist rate even though the slower one enhances speed but not necessarily the stability of heavier projectiles. I believe Frans Odendaal has the right idea.


The 416 Rigby in the Barnes reloading manual #4 has a 1/12 twist, the 416 Remington 1/14
The 404 has a 1/14 twist rate. This obviously is in the firearms or test barrels Barnes used. Others use different twist rates. But since Barnes are generally long for caliber bullets, I believe they know what they're doing.
 
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It seems the owner of a 404 Jeffery needs to see if the 450 gn bullet stabilise in his rifle to ensure an optimal use of this great caliber. I already ordered 450 gn Steward soft nose core -bonded bullets from Hansie Minnaar. I am so impressed with his 350 gn core bonded bullets I used on the blue wildebees and impala..I really want to see what the 450 gn bullet will do to a huge Eland bull....(y)(y)
 
I agree and personally would chose a 1/14 twist or a hair faster. Good luck in using the 450 gr !
 
Hank,
Thank you for your comments. To tell you the truth, I will shoot my .416Rigby 10 times before shooting my .375H&H. The Rigby recoils less than the H&H, or let me say a lot slower.
I've watched Kevin Robertson shoot that .505Gibbs in real life. He makes it look like its a medium bore.
I had the pleasure to see Dr. Kevin Robertson shooting his .505 Gibbs as well...he has a extremely large frame ..and is a biggg man ....he has a 9.3x62 BRNO that is older than himself..he has shot 635 buffaloes with this rifle..here is a video of a person who shot Dr. Kevin`s .505 Gibbs...I already decided many years ago that I will stick to a 404 Jeffery since I can manage my 404 Jeffery with ease....unlike this gentleman shooting a rifle far above his capabilities..:LOL::LOL::LOL:
 
I reall enjoy reading this thread.

Gert, according to Dr. Kevin Robertson book "Africa's Most Dangerous" (page 77&100), the 1952 model Brno ZG 47 was purchase from a retired Crop Protection Officer that worked on a large sugar-production estate in the Rhodesian lowveld. Roughly the first 600 buffalos shoot with this rifle belongs to the original owner of the rifle. Most of the subsequent ones belong to Dr. Robertson and his clients, since the Brno is in fact set to be used by his clients. As you mentioned above, his 505 is less client friendly.
 
V.Veritas, you are correct, Dr. Kevin mentioned that the BRNO is older than him. I handled this rifle,it is a perfect rifle...I would really go to extreme lengths to get such a rifle for myself..but they do not make them like that anymore....Dr. Kevin mentioned a total of 635 buffalo shot with this particular rifle...(y)(y)(y)
 
I also was under the impression the faster you can shoot a solid the better, however this is not the case.

You are right with your explanation but only to a point. This is called "super cavitation".

Super cavitation is the use of cavitation effects to create a large bubble of gas inside a liquid, allowing an object to travel at great speed through the liquid by being wholly enveloped by the bubble. The cavity (i.e., the bubble) reduces the drag on the object and precisely this makes super cavitation an attractive technology. In super cavitation, the small gas bubbles produced by cavitation expand and combine to form one large, stable, and predictable bubble around the supercavitating object. The bubble is longer than the object, so only the leading edge of the object actually contacts the aqueous medium. The rest of the object is surrounded by low-pressure water vapor. A supercavitating body has extremely low drag, because its skin friction almost disappears. Instead of being encased in water, it is surrounded by the water vapor in the super cavity, which has much lower viscosity and density. A super cavity can also be formed around a specially designed projectile. The key is creating a zone of low pressure around the entire object by carefully shaping the nose and firing the projectile at a sufficiently high velocity. At high velocity, water flows off the edge of the nose with a speed and angle that prevent it from wrapping around the surface of the projectile, producing a low-pressure bubble around the object. With an appropriate nose shape, the entire projectile may reside in a vapor cavity.

However, once you exceed a certain velocity(depending on caliber). For DG cartridges this velocity is about 2400fps, after that they penetrate less. Without getting too technical, the bullet basically starts overtaking the Cavity it creates and penetration is greatly reduced. Lots of info on net.

Let me just say if you have a heavy for caliber bullet(or call it normal for caliber if you like), 400gr for 404 Jeff, 410gr for 416 Rigby, 570gr for 500 Jeff and you are using either a premium bonded bullet or a Meplat monolithic solid you will have all the penetration you need for all the animals you could hunt in Africa.

If the heavy bullet gives you the optimum performance why would we need to change?

Sure you get the lighter bullet higher velocity bullet followers and then you get my type, the old school heavy for caliber at the optimum velocity followers. I will stick to heavy for caliber bullets at 2300FPS in my DG rifles as they have never let me down.

Thank you for this very clear explanation on "super cavitation" which makes perfect sense and that I find extremely interesting and useful to know. Particularly the speeds at which it is optimized.

Paul
 
sestoppelman, yer links aren't working. :(

Paw Print, are you sure about those numbers? I only ask because its hard to believe an extra 25 fps would generate an additional 105 ft/lb of energy and 7.6 ft/lb of recoil using a bullet of equal weight. the Jeffery's bullet is only 0.007 inches wider then the Rigby so I don't see that making a huge difference. :confused:

-matt

Matt,

I realize this is an old thread.
The energy numbers are right on the money to the pound for each round.
The recoil numbers are off. About 60 lbs for the Rigby in a 10 lbs rifle and about 53-54 lbs for the Jeffery in a 10 lbs rifle for the loads provided by Pieter.
Giving 100 grains of powder to the 416 and 85 grains of powder for the Jeffery.

The Jeffery at its more standard speed recoils far less. 73.5 grains of powder in a 10 lbs rifle with a 400 grains bullet at 2261 fps (Barnes manual) equals 45 lbs of recoil. The advantage of the Jeffery is its undeniable efficiency with recoil levels far lower than the 416 Rigby. Even lower loads for the Rigby require substantially higher powder charges which create more recoil. However the Rigby can push a bullet at well over 2500 feet for those who desire it. The 416 Remington can be down loaded more comfortably and safely and on average is within a couple of pounds of recoil of the Jeffery. Give or take depending on the powder charge and speed of bullet.

In an eleven pounds rifle instead of a 10 lbs rifle, at that level of recoil, substract 4 lbs off of recoil for the same loads in either chambering.
 
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If the .404 Jeffery recoils less than the .416 Rigby with same weight bullets at the same velocity because the smaller case is more efficient then the .416 Ruger should recoil even less:

According to the Nosler manual: .416 Ruger - 400 grain bullet, velocity 2108 fps, 10 pound rifle, 63.5 grains H335 = 42.73 fp recoil

According to the Barnes manual: .404 Jeffery - 400 grain bullet, velocity 2091 fps, 10 pound rifle, 68.5 grains IMR4320 = 44.08 fp recoil
 
Postoak,

You're correct.
Assuming two constants, the weight of the bullet and the weight of the firearm. What changes recoil levels is the weight of the powder and the speed of the bullet.
I get lower recoil levels than you've presented for both rounds however; with these powder charges and low velocities both my calculations (within 2% of each other in favor of the 416 Ruger) are below 40 lbs each. Around 375 H&H standard mild loads.

I get 37.45 lbs of recoil for the 404 Jeffery with the load you've presented and 36.78 lbs of recoil for the 416 Ruger. Extremely mild, but I personally would want more speed, closer to or above 2300 fps.

I don't take into account shape of the cartridge or bore diameter nor do I take into account whatever recoil absorption system is used. Strictly RAW weights (powder weight only, not its burning rate) and speed of the bullet. The element that may affect calculations that I do not incorporate is bore diameter but I'm not sure.
 
Paul, what recoil calculator are you using? I used this one:

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php

I think experience has shown a 400 grain bullet in the .405 - .423 range at 2150 fps is a reliable killer on the largest game. Depending on the recoil I felt at that level I might load to 2400, or not.

Of course a major factor in felt recoil is stock fit. That might outweigh some of the other considerations.
 
Interessting tread.
A question a little bit of the topic but I ask it.
I have a rifle with a standard Mauser M98 Magazin, this is in caliber 404.
These cartridge are 5mm shorter than the original 404 Jeffery, I ahve cut the caselenght from 73 to 68mm.
That means that the volume of the case are lesser, even if just the troat is shorter.
I load these with 79,0 grs Vihtavuori N-140 powder and a 400 grs Woodleigh RNSP, in my Chronograph I get 2370 f/sec. with a very good classic stock kick like a donkey.
This load in my rifle
I get the same performance with the shorter case with less powder, I don`t know how pressure is, but when I see the case after shooting it`s normal space around the primerseating, the boltaction is not heavy, absolut normal and the case are the same lenght as before shooting.
I think i can get even more out of these, but it isn`t any point doing so.
 
Stock fit is subjective and individual. It doesn't enter the equation in RAW calculations but is of great importance to the individual.
I don't use a recoil calculator at all. I do the calculations myself.
 
Hallgeir Gravrak,

I would watch for pressure signs very closely. From what you're saying it seems to work safely. Only you can tell.
 

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