PHASA Captive Bred Lion Hunting

rinehart0050 said:

What about introduction into an area where there are no lions? I suspect the CBL could survive there if adequate prey existed.
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Maybe CBL should be reintroduced in areas with high concentrations of al shabaab or boko haram.

PS: I want everyone to notice the smiley face emojis. In no way would I want the poor CBL's to have kidnappers, rapists, female genitalia mutilators, murders, etc. stuck between their teeth without the ability to floss.

Wheels said:

Maybe CBL should be reintroduced in areas with high concentrations of al shabaab or boko haram.

PS: I want everyone to notice the smiley face emojis. In no way would I want the poor CBL's to have kidnappers, rapists, female genitalia mutilators, murders, etc. stuck between their teeth without the ability to floss.

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Bwhaaa

PHOENIX PHIL said:

Ending the hunting of CBLs will result in the end of lions bred in captivity. Do we want that regardless of our stances on the hunting of them?

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As I said earlier, this seems to be a weak argument for CBL hunting, at least at this point. Captive breeding occurs elsewhere and for other reasons - zoos, pets, etc. Heck, there are close to as many if not more lions in the U.S. at the current time as there are in CBL breeding programs (based on a quick Internet search only). The problem with lions many times is not that they don't breed, but they they do.

Again, not commenting either way on CBL hunting, but the conservation aspects of the breeding program does seem questionable from that standpoint alone. Lions may become extinct in the true wilderness simply because it no longer exists, but I don't see them becoming extinct in Parks, zoos, conservancy, etc even if every CBL in SA was put down today.

The biggest thing I wonder about this is how much genetic diversity is gained through current CBL stock that couldn't be found elsewhere in the case that the wild lion does become extinct. If CBL stock is heavily inbred already....

roberq said:

Phil your right..... but a pig is not a predator.....

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Feral hogs have been known to take down and eat baby whitetail deer. They are opportunists and will eat anything they can catch.

I will try and get the statistics . They actually have a very large genetic variety . I need to put it in the clear . I have never hunted any of these lions. I have never been on of these hunts before.

The rewilded lions mentioned in #110 is actually on a neighbouring property ..

We have a reserve close by that has lions but these are the first re wilded lions in the area . They have been here since October 2016 .

They now have 4 cubs. Awesome to hear them at night . They were bred in captivity but now fend for them selves.

SafariA said:

I will try and get the statistics . They actually have a very large genetic variety . I need to put it in the clear . I have never hunted any of these lions. I have never been on of these hunts before.

The rewilded lions mentioned in #110 is actually on a neighbouring property ..

We have a reserve close by that has lions but these are the first re wilded lions in the area . They have been here since October 2016 .

They now have 4 cubs. Awesome to hear them at night . They were bred in captivity but now fend for them selves.

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+

More of this is happening, Montague private game reserve also has a wilded pride, they actually adapt quite easily into the wild.

I never understood the arguement that a CBL won't kill when in wild. Take any house cat that has been babied and hand feed, and let it outside. It will kill. I have seen CBL kills before and I don't have extensive experience. To say we as humans have altered their natural instincts is greatly discounting the power of mother nature.

IdaRam said:

@SafariA , I appreciate the “middle of the road” manner in which you are providing information for us. Thank you.

Sadly, I suspect this issue will be even more divisive now than ever. It has already deepened the rift within PHASA and without, it appears.
Color me a skeptic, but I have a deep suspicion there is much more going on and more to this than just the CBL issue only. Politics, in-fighting, control, power, cronyism, money, etc, etc, etc

OPHAA is pissed off
NAPHA is pissed off
APHA is pissed off
SITKA Gear is pissed off
WILD SHEEP FOUNDATION is pissed off
OUTFITTERS are pissed off
PH’s are pissed off

EVERYONE is pissed off... except the anti’s
I think that POP! I just heard was a champagne cork from over at the Anti’s headquarters.
They are going to PRETEND to be all pissed off, but I suspect they are really celebrating and laughing their collective asses off!

What a cluster

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IdaRam your comment was spot on!

LivingTheDream said:

I never understood the arguement that a CBL won't kill when in wild. Take any house cat that has been babied and hand feed, and let it outside. It will kill. I have seen CBL kills before and I don't have extensive experience. To say we as humans have altered their natural instincts is greatly discounting the power of mother nature.

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Completely agree. Cats are natural born hunters. At least all the cats I have seen.
I know, some will say lion and their prey are a world apart from house cats...
I have witnessed first hand 2 impala and 1 donkey killed by captive bred lion and the lioness I hunted in 2015 was with another lioness and they were hunting 4 gemsbok.
Captive bred lion hunt. Successfully. Seems logical to me. Necessity being the mother of invention and all...

Just playing the conspiracy theorist here. Are there any costs involved in becoming one of the “pre-approved” PHASA lion hunting areas?
Costs meaning, upfront to be pre-approved and/or commission to be paid to any association, on lions taken from the area.

KMG Hunting Safaris said:

Just playing the conspiracy theorist here. Are there any costs involved in becoming one of the “pre-approved” PHASA lion hunting areas?
Costs meaning, upfront to be pre-approved and/or commission to be paid to any association, on lions taken from the area.

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It seems so, although no costs given.

Royal27 said:

• an assessment fee, to be determined by the Assessment Committee, will be charged prior to the assessment to cover travel and consulting costs;

• the applicant will need to provide the members of the Assessment Committee with

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KMG Hunting Safaris said:

Just playing the conspiracy theorist here. Are there any costs involved in becoming one of the “pre-approved” PHASA lion hunting areas?
Costs meaning, upfront to be pre-approved and/or commission to be paid to any association, on lions taken from the area.

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Thank you for the question . I just got the info . These assesments can only be done on SAPA members properties. So you have to be a SAPA member.

They have an independant panel of people that do the assesments once a year . This panel consists of 5 to 6 people that includes 1 SAPA member. They welcome the SPCA to also be present as animal welfare is normally one of the biggest concerns .

The assesment fee is about $1200 and covers the cost of the Panel for travel etc. Should the facility be approved the ceetificate is valid for 3 years.

Certificate is transferable so should the property be sold the assesment needs to be done again . Hope this answers your questions.

Like always, I am not speaking for or against CBL.

If I was not any wiser, it sounds like a monopoly being created.

I missed one question you asked. They also have a Conservation Fund . Roughly a $1000 fee per Lion . Currently still run by SAPA . This would have been a fund run by government but as we all know they are not always very efficient.

The Government Conservation Fund have been established but cannot accept funds yet.

KMG Hunting Safaris said:

Like always, I am not speaking for or against CBL.

If I was not any wiser, it sounds like a monopoly being created.

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Agreed might look like it .... I guess in the same breath guys against hunting Ranch Lions and only for Wild Lions also creates a monopoly . .

I guess the main aim should be to get accountability as well as some good regulation in place.

Regulation should be in place to rid any industry of the ROGUE elements .....

I still don't understand why everyone is getting worked up. We still can't import "ranch lions" into the USA. Yes, you can hunt them but you can't bring a nice rug or mount back to the USA. I know this doesn't apply to other countries but I still find this disturbing that we are bending at the knees to the antis............ It just goes to show most people have poor emotional control about lions hunted behind a fence.

I will say I have HUGE concerns about the 30 day release period being honored..

edward said:

at 79 in 3 days i guess im retarded and dumb,but,why is it ok to hunt a captive bred plains game animal but not a lion???providing the animal in question is not in a squeeze shoot or in a small enclosure but is running free in what would be the same country as the wild animal is hunted in??not trying to start an argument,but,whats the difference?other than the captive lion might be more dangerous as they dont fear man as much as the wild animal does.not looking for sarcasm,just a straight answer.

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I am sure this will open a new can of worms. Stories are told that say that a CBL is released into a small enclosure for a few days. It is not able to hunt or fend for himself. Throw a piece of meat in and he will come running to you. SCI requires 6 months in the wild. From what I can gather this is not the norm in the CBL industry.

Royal27 said:

As I said earlier, this seems to be a weak argument for CBL hunting, at least at this point. Captive breeding occurs elsewhere and for other reasons - zoos, pets, etc. Heck, there are close to as many if not more lions in the U.S. at the current time as there are in CBL breeding programs (based on a quick Internet search only). The problem with lions many times is not that they don't breed, but they they do.

Again, not commenting either way on CBL hunting, but the conservation aspects of the breeding program does seem questionable from that standpoint alone. Lions may become extinct in the true wilderness simply because it no longer exists, but I don't see them becoming extinct in Parks, zoos, conservancy, etc even if every CBL in SA was put down today.

The biggest thing I wonder about this is how much genetic diversity is gained through current CBL stock that couldn't be found elsewhere in the case that the wild lion does become extinct. If CBL stock is heavily inbred already....

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I agree with you @Royal27, but I don't think this was my point.

My point was that if lions ever were close to extinction, would you rather have an IUCN listing of 'extinct' or 'extinct in the wild'? It's just logical to suggest that we will never, ever, ever, run out of lions if they are being bred somewhere for some other purpose.

Having said that, I read the article that Robert posted, which addresses the issue of re-introducing lions into lion areas. I see no reason why we would do that today. Like the article suggests, it probably wouldn't work, for a whole bunch of reasons. But if at some point down the road, we had no lions left in the wild at all (sort of like scimitar horned oryx), wouldn't we rather there were real live lions somewhere? My guess is that as long as we hav e captive bred lions, we at least have the opportunity of re-introducing lions into the wild, should that ever become necessary.

I think there have been cases - I'd find them but I'm not as good at this as @BRICKBURN - where captive born lions were introduced into a fenced property, and over time learned to hunt and formed a pride, and reproduced. If I'm wrong, happy to admit it, but if I'm right, surely that proves something?

The bottom line is that I will never worry about the existence of lions on this planet so long as SAPA ()or someone else) is breeding them.

I do worry - a lot - about the existence of wild lion habitat though.

Hank2211 said:

My point was that if lions ever were close to extinction, would you rather have an IUCN listing of 'extinct' or 'extinct in the wild'? It's just logical to suggest that we will never, ever, ever, run out of lions if they are being bred somewhere for some other purpose.

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Totally agree, extinct in the wild is better than extinct everywhere.

The point I was making is that lion breeding does occur elsewhere and that the CBL population itself isn't "the only last hope" for lions as a living organism, somewhere....

To me, if I wanted to be successful in explaining why CBL was important for some reason other than profit margin to an outfitter/breeder and a less expensive way to shoot a lion for the client, I'd try and find a better reason than last hope....

Royal27 said:

To me, if I wanted to be successful in explaining why CBL was important for some reason other than profit margin to an outfitter/breeder and a less expensive way to shoot a lion for the client, I'd try and find a better reason than last hope....

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I don't think the argument should be made on any single reason. There are lots of reasons.