FB News feed and Passing of Theunis Botha

Ridge Runner said:

Yet, it is still all about the size of the trophy.

Why????

WHY Do 99% (as seen in the media and by observing conversational hunters) of todays hunters compete for who has the biggest/ largest, most (# killed during a season/lifetime), type (slams), etc..

WHY HAS HUNTING TURNED TO SHOOTING AND BRAGGING RIGHTS?????

7. WHY has hunting gone from a neccessity for gathering meat to becoming a sport for gathering bragging rights?

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That is actually a very intentional (and successful) part of the North American Wildlife Conservation Model that Teddy Roosevelt and others pushed for very hard at the turn of the last century..

Commercial hunters were depleting US wildlife resources. Sheep, Elk, and other species were rapidly dwindling in numbers..

Prominent hunters of the time period pushed for regulation, and insisted that a sustainable management system be put in place that involved primarily removing older animals that were not a viable part of the breeding pool any longer and leaving females and younger, breeding males alone..

Old deer/elk/sheep, etc.. have big antlers/horns/etc.. and "trophy hunting" became a measure of pride among hunters (a 10 point whitetail buck became more "valuable" as a hunter was adhering to the new system of "rules" than a doe or a spike buck.. which would taste better on the plate)..

Read some of Shane Mahoney's stuff when you get a chance, or watch a couple of his youtube videos on the NAWCM.. he makes a much more eloquent presentation than I do and provides some great history on how we got from where we were in the mid 1800's to where we are today.. and how elements of the NAWCM are now being seen in other countries..

Ridge Runner said:

WE ALL NEED TO BECOME ONE ORGANIZATION!

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I disagree with you on this one.. but.. I would agree that we do need change..

The NRA is the front runner on firearms.. but they are not the only organization that lobbies or is committed to protecting 2A rights.. there are numerous organizations out there.. each with its own agenda, its own focus area, and its own following..

The difference between the 2A groups and hunting groups though I think is.. the vast majority of the members of groups like Guns of America, or the USCCA, etc.. ALSO belong to the NRA.. they understand and recognize that there is a single large organization out there that can get more done.. and that while the NRA may not have the same focus on a particular topic or sub category that they do.. they can belong to their smaller organization (like GOA) and be involved there, while still contributing $$$ to the bigger organization (NRA)..

Hunters dont really have that..

DU does a whole lot more than just protect duck habitat and ducks.. but as a rule duck hunters are who gravitate there.. and you wont find a lot of hard core duck hunters belonging to RMEF.... RMEF does a whole lot more than just protect elk and elk habitat.. but as a rule, you wont find a whole lot of hard core elk hunters that belong to RMEF that also belong to NWTF, etc..etc..

Hunters tend to stick to their special interests only.. and dont do a good job of dedicating their time and money to the hunting community at large..

Thats what needs to change in my opinion...

Love elk hunting? Awesome.. join RMEF.. get involved with RMEF.. work hard to preserve elk and elk habitat... but also join DSC (or whoever we want to make the "central" agency that represents ALL hunters worldwide).. Cant get enough turkey hunting.. great.. volunteer at the NWTF convention this year.. send them as much $$ as you can afford to.. and then ALSO join DSC...

I know Im totally preaching to the choir here as many AH members are already members of multiple organizations and are hunting enthusiasts whose interests span a wide variety of game and hunting regions..

But until we as a community learn to band together a little better.. and one organization establishes itself as a front runner in the area of protecting the rights of ALL hunters.. we're going to continue in the same cycle we've been in for the better part of the past few decades.. and its going to be an all uphill battle for the duration...

One of the most interesting points Shane Mahoney made in a video I recently watched of his was... only 4.5% of Americans are hunters.. in some states the hunting population is 1.5%.. If we dont find a way to come together better and speak as a single voice.. it would be very easy for us to become "irrelevant" in the very near future..

The news feed showed up in my local area media outlets yesterday. I really blasted some of the people that posted, vile, and hateful comments. It really blows my mind how ignorant these people can be. Even after I posted positive information on the wide ranging benefits of sport hunting, many still don't get it.

Some people, you just can't reach.

Brent in Az, I fully understand. For over the years I too have had various degrees of trying to explain the art of hunting to "idiots" , who think the beef in their hamburger they are eating was made in a store.

Their educational system was an experimental system that has transited into the main stream. Where their bain no longer understands the concept of "The Food Chain".

Unfortunately a cure for them hasn't been developed. (Ok, that's a lie, the cure hasn't been used since 1945, because some other a**hole used it immorally, and it became known as the holocost)( The other cure, said to be more humane, relocate them for life in California. This has obviously been a huge failure, many have escaped and are currently infecting others at an epidemic rate).

My apologies and no offense meant to all those few hunters in California who remain ammune, "live long and prosper".

My best advise is not to use sport and hunting in the same sentence when dealing with these types of people.

Hunting is work.

Work..unknown word...to these types...you already lost them...

Sport....is what they go see in a reasonably controlled enviroment with friends, while they text/ blog the person/people beside them.

Search out those who are less infected and get them to understand.

I have started using the term Personal Use Hunting vs. Sport Hunting. It may be a subtle difference but in my conversations, I get more interest and discussion when I'm able to open the door with the animal being used.

I believe that Merriam Webster's definition provides insight as to why non-hunters may be biased towards anti-hunts vs. hunters.

3
sport
Definition of sport for English Language Learners

• 
  : done for enjoyment rather than as a job or for food for survival
  
  
• : participating in an activity (such as hunting or fishing) for enjoyment rather than as a job or for food for survival

mdwest, you are correct and I applaud that every organization should have a seperate/specific agenda....specialty...like doctors.

However, as a whole without each other we lose the two things we want.

Our unhindered right to own firearms. Our unhindered right to use those firearms in a legal, constructive manor.

The NRA is about 2nd Amendment, but they should be equally aggressive in representing shooters and hunters.

Hunting organizations should not just represent their niche, but hunting as a whole and firearm ownership, strongly and equally.

Maybe not the best analogy:

A choir of 20 singing one song has a much better effect than a fuster cluck of 20 singing 20 different songs at the same time. And a choir is louder than a soloist.

The media focuses thier attacks mainly on the NRA. WHY? (Retoricle question).

Speculate:

The harsh rebutal impact the media would face if they attacked the NRA equally defending hunters, shooters, and US firearms manufacturers(?).

Would that not sound the rally cry for all hunting based organizations to rally with the NRA?.

Speculate this:

SCI is attacked in the media for equally standing up speaking on behalf of firearm ownership and/or shooting clubs.

Would that not sound the rally cry for NRA and USSF and others to cry foul against the biased media?

We have one voice, we just haven't used it properly.

thi9elsp,

Unless, which I probably somehow did, miss your point. My bad. My most humble apologies.

No offense, but I'm pretty sure as hunters we understand the concept, but don't consider hunting a sport. Even as Webster defined it, reference to the definitions you provided.

Unless a person has a following on web media that retweets. It's not likely that educating the intellectually challenged, anti-hunting public, will ever happen successfully.

Here in eastern Tennessee, the public joined hunters in abolishing what is also known as, "pen hunting".

Without going into a long discription:

Basically you paid for an animal, the owner/operator released the animal into a 1/2 acre(or less) feed lot from a barn enclosure and the buyer shot it.
I'm pretty sure that's neither sport nor hunting as defined by Webster.

We, in Tennessee, also had a guy try " Humane Hunting", by which a person would pay the videoing and snapshots of "them" shooting an animal with a "dart"/ tranquilizer gun. This was also quickly, hunters with public support, shut down.

I don't know nor can or will I speak for other hunters. Especially on this site or in these forums.

I am, and with very few exception, a meat hunter!!. If it were legal, ie. South Africa, I would bring back as much meat as possible from my hunts. Unfortunately, I cannot. But I will dine on the meat while in country and providing food for the locals I have no problem with.

At home, I will have no meat to remember the hunt, only the mount on the wall, for which I will pay homage to.

@Ridge Runner I wasn't responding to you in particular. Just sharing how I, in my own little world, are trying to affect change and using different terms. It has been effective with several acquaintances and relatives; while, others may drop the conversation with me and I realize they just won't recognize the benefit that we as conservationists hunters provide to wild lands and wildlife.

Wheels, I wish to address your thread, and EVERYONE ELSE with such mind set. Get your head out of your a**es! Now!

THIS HOLDS FOR EVERYONE OF US:

That's negative thinking and so many of us, including myself, are guilty of such nonsence, at one time or another.

How many hunting, gun, etc. magazines do you receive in the mail?

We all have a voice. Do we belong to any local hunting/shooting orgamizations? Why not? A club....There's a voice.

Are we whinning? Get involved! Get organized: first locally, secondly state, last nationally.

We don't need to be a member of every hunting club or organization. We need to get what organizations we belong to, to join forces with national groups. Those national hunting groups must join togather with the shooting groups and 2nd Amendment groups. Only then can WE as a whole benefit.

WE HAVE BUT TWO CAUSES:
Protection of our rights to firearms and the right to participate in the conservation of wildlife through hunting.

Telling a co-worker how bad a machine works, does nothing to fix it. We know how bad the machine is.

Until the boss is told the machine won't be fixed.

We as hunters are becoming pacifist allowing the anti's to be heard. We as hunters and shooters need to become pro-active, no longer the silent, no need to start trouble, whinny, types.

WE, are the conservationists, not these highly advertised USPCA, PETA, "tree huggers".

WE need to hit the web media in force and We need to support those who posts on web media in force.

WE need to respond 2,3,4,..positive to every 1 negative response even if repeating another persons post.

The hunting organizations listed by the OP care about one thing....MONEY. They could give a rat's ass about educating the masses on the conservation benefits of hunting and how much we as hunters support. Look how fast they bailed on the "Cecil" debacle before all evidence was provided. I have no faith in any of them speaking out and supporting professional hunters in any capacity.

As far as the NRA, I stopped giving them any of my money years ago, when I saw Wayne Lapierre rubbing elbows with the traitor known as Harry Reid in Nevada at the grand opening of a new range.

Biddleman,

Ok, I believe in what the NRA stands for. Like you, I no longer will send money to the NRA. This started decades ago.

I sent my renewal membership fees in and the only thing I received were notices asking for contributions for the ILA.

Several years later I again decided to rejoin the NRA, even made a seperate payment for a subscription for another magazine. This time I receive nothing from the NRA.

First time: Guess having been a member for 5 years meant nothing to them.

Second time: Guess they figured they had enough money from me I didn't matter.

Yeah, I had it, but I just naturally hold a grudge against those that screw me over.

Traditional Mozabique Safaris,

You ask what I consider the difference between hunting vs shooting?

In short hunting is a skill set that leads one to the ultimate goal.

In short shooting there is no hunting required.

Long version:

Hunting: the chase: It starts with a purpose. Followed by a lot of planning. Factor in variables like weather, mating/ the rut, other hunters movements and/or numbers, length of time: be it the entire season, or vacation time.

Next: it's on the ground time. Physical. Searching for sign/tracks, trails etc.,

Finally: last of season or vacation day. This is the time you realize were you hunting or just out for a woods walk.

At any time during this trip an animal may have been killed.

Shooting:
Tree stand or blind over/near bait. Kinda like fishing. Sitting and waiting then shoot. Come home. The whole trip was just an inconvient getting up before daylight and arriving back by lunch.

Ridge Runner, I appreciate your passion and enjoyed reading through your posts. In a previous life I worked in garnering support for programs in Congress, and I agree that both mass and energy generates results. However, I also am an endowment member of the NRA, and I fully believe they have done a remarkable job of defending 2d amendment rights over the last few decades. No, I don't agree with their every initiative - but that has to do with tactics - not strategy. And no, the NRA doesn't spend nearly enough time supporting hunters - but then again that isn't really their charter is it? In fact, in a symptom of the times, a large majority of our membership is far more interested in the sport (and potential post-zombie-apocalypse) use of the AR platform than any hunting issue on the table. Just pick up any copy of Guns and Ammo. But we hunters should indeed take some lessons from their efforts.

I am also afraid we can't ignore the very dramatic cultural shift that is taking place around us. It is real. States like my home here in Texas would never have considered state constitutional amendments were needed to protect hunting. But even here we have adopted them. Austin is just down the road, and it is filling with newly minted Texans who look at those of us who practice traditional "sports" such as hunting as creatures from another planet. I see little hope of breaking through the growing majorities in the east and west coast metropolitan centers.

And don't get too intolerant of those "shooters" among us who use tree stands and even a feeder from time to time - perhaps you have walked a buck up in the South Texas brush country, a Louisiana swamp, or a South Carolina back bay - most I know find that fairly unproductive. Environment sometimes tailors ethics and dictates technique. That attitude also introduces yet another slice to further divide "hunter" ranks. Just saying.

But I agree with your basic thesis. We better figure out how to start organizing rather than further subdividing. I am a life member of both DSC and SCI and in both organizations we have core member factions who despise the other - ridiculous. Sort of like a deer stalker diminishing a fellow hunter on a stand? But I digress. We absolutely need to start to consolidate our resources, strategically focus on key influence opportunities, and drive those as hard as we can. We are likely on the wrong side of where history is taking us. We have poachers on one flank and the social media snow flakes on the other. We are likely fighting at best a holding action. And we had better work very hard to get our act together collectively or the battle could be quite short.

Red Leg said:

Ridge Runner, I appreciate your passion and enjoyed reading through your posts. In a previous life I worked in garnering support for programs in Congress, and I agree that both mass and energy generates results. However, I also am an endowment member of the NRA, and I fully believe they have done a remarkable job of defending 2d amendment rights over the last few decades. No, I don't agree with their every initiative - but that has to do with tactics - not strategy. And no, the NRA doesn't spend nearly enough time supporting hunters - but then again that isn't really their charter is it? In fact, in a symptom of the times, a large majority of our membership is far more interested in the sport (and potential post-zombie-apocalypse) use of the AR platform than any hunting issue on the table. Just pick up any copy of Guns and Ammo. But we hunters should indeed take some lessons from their efforts.

I am also afraid we can't ignore the very dramatic cultural shift that is taking place around us. It is real. States like my home here in Texas would never have considered state constitutional amendments were needed to protect hunting. But even here we have adopted them. Austin is just down the road, and it is filling with newly minted Texans who look at those of us who practice traditional "sports" such has hunting as creatures from another planet. I see little hope of breaking through the growing majorities in the east and west coast metropolitan centers.

And don't get too intolerant of those "shooters" among us who use tree stands and even a feeder from time to time - perhaps you have walked a buck up in the South Texas brush country, a Louisiana swamp, or a South Carolina back bay - most I know find that fairly unproductive. Environment sometimes tailors ethics and dictates technique. That attitude also introduces yet another slice to further divide "hunter" ranks. Just saying.

But I agree with your basic thesis. We better figure out how to start organizing rather than further subdividing. I am a life member of both DSC and SCI and in both organizations we have core member factions who despise the other - ridiculous. Sort of like a deer stalker diminishing a fellow hunter on a stand? But I digress. We absolutely need to start to consolidate our resources, strategically focus on key influence opportunities, and drive those as hard as we can. We are likely on the wrong side of where history is taking us. We have poachers on one flank and the social media snow flakes on the other. We are likely fighting at best a holding action. And we had better work very hard to get our act together collectively or the battle could be quite short.

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Very well said!

Red Leg said:

Ridge Runner, I appreciate your passion and enjoyed reading through your posts. In a previous life I worked in garnering support for programs in Congress, and I agree that both mass and energy generates results. However, I also am an endowment member of the NRA, and I fully believe they have done a remarkable job of defending 2d amendment rights over the last few decades. No, I don't agree with their every initiative - but that has to do with tactics - not strategy. And no, the NRA doesn't spend nearly enough time supporting hunters - but then again that isn't really their charter is it? In fact, in a symptom of the times, a large majority of our membership is far more interested in the sport (and potential post-zombie-apocalypse) use of the AR platform than any hunting issue on the table. Just pick up any copy of Guns and Ammo. But we hunters should indeed take some lessons from their efforts.

I am also afraid we can't ignore the very dramatic cultural shift that is taking place around us. It is real. States like my home here in Texas would never have considered state constitutional amendments were needed to protect hunting. But even here we have adopted them. Austin is just down the road, and it is filling with newly minted Texans who look at those of us who practice traditional "sports" such as hunting as creatures from another planet. I see little hope of breaking through the growing majorities in the east and west coast metropolitan centers.

And don't get too intolerant of those "shooters" among us who use tree stands and even a feeder from time to time - perhaps you have walked a buck up in the South Texas brush country, a Louisiana swamp, or a South Carolina back bay - most I know find that fairly unproductive. Environment sometimes tailors ethics and dictates technique. That attitude also introduces yet another slice to further divide "hunter" ranks. Just saying.

But I agree with your basic thesis. We better figure out how to start organizing rather than further subdividing. I am a life member of both DSC and SCI and in both organizations we have core member factions who despise the other - ridiculous. Sort of like a deer stalker diminishing a fellow hunter on a stand? But I digress. We absolutely need to start to consolidate our resources, strategically focus on key influence opportunities, and drive those as hard as we can. We are likely on the wrong side of where history is taking us. We have poachers on one flank and the social media snow flakes on the other. We are likely fighting at best a holding action. And we had better work very hard to get our act together collectively or the battle could be quite short.

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Amen, spot on, and eloquently put!

@Red Leg, I agree. You can't hunt in South Texas without a stand and a clearing, the conditions don't allow for another way. Is that shooting or hunting? It's hunting to me and that what counts.

Unfortunately, its not only Austin those newly minted Texans from CA, NY, etc are migrating to, its all of central Texas. In this Sunday's Express-News there was an article about a real state development close to where I live and the folks moving there. It was not pretty. In less then 10 years Texas will be forever changed, it makes me think twice about building my retirement house.

We have a huge number of newly minted Idahoan's as well, with more on the way. Californians leading the way with Washington and Oregon being 2nd and 3rd.

An except from KTVB news article.
The Idaho DMV reports 10,682 people moved to Idaho from California in 2016. Nearby Washington takes second place with 7,391. Oregon and Utah are next with a combined 7,493 people. When looking at all 50 states just over 48,000 people decided to pack up and make Idaho their new home last year.
The implications keep me up at night

A lot well said, @Red Leg I raise my glass to you.

One key point that should be made; Set one well defined goal and concentrate all efforts on it and you will likely accomplish it.

That is why the NRA has been successful.

Yes they can help hunters. But we should not expect that organization to pick up the hunting banner.

Unfortunately @Wheels is correct. That one leader has not stepped up, neither an organization nor individual.

What we need is focus with a clearly defined simple goal. Clarity of purpose. Anything less will only serve to continue to dilute efforts.

IdaRam said:

We have a huge number of newly minted Idahoan's as well, with more on the way. Californians leading the way with Washington and Oregon being 2nd and 3rd.

An except from KTVB news article.
The Idaho DMV reports 10,682 people moved to Idaho from California in 2016. Nearby Washington takes second place with 7,391. Oregon and Utah are next with a combined 7,493 people. When looking at all 50 states just over 48,000 people decided to pack up and make Idaho their new home last year.
The implications keep me up at night

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Yea and when they get there they will make it like California. People move to rural areas because they hate the city. Then they vote for laws that make it like the city

Red Leg,

I knew I was going to catch flack when I referred to stand hunters as shooters...I know I'll also catch flack on baiting also as.....not hunting.

I was asked to define what I consider as hunting vs shooting.
I should have deleted the stand and bait analogy, as it's an inside joke in our group. My patio deer is a much better analogy for shooting.

In Tennessee it is illegal to bait wildlife during hunting season. However, it is legal regardless of size to hunt agricultural/ farm land and food plots.

In one group the fellows like to poke fun at me. I like to stalk/still hunt and I only hunt on public land. They prefer leasing land, setting up treestands and legally pour corn out until two weeks before deer season opens. I respond back by calling them deer fisherman.

Here's one of several stories that happened some years back. Note: this is about 8 fellows leasimg 5-6 acres of private land that borders several hundred acres of public land.

These fellows spent from the end of the previous deer season setting up over a dozen treestands, numerous trail cameras, cutting shooting lanes and pouring out around a thousand pounds of deer corn.

Each day they compared and talked about all the photos of deer from the trail cams.

Opening morning came (archery season) they were in thier stands 2 hours before daylight and stayed until well past dark.

As usual I entered the public land at shooting light came out around noon and returned around 2:30 to the woods coming out as last light turned to dark.

Next day we met up at the archery shop. As I joined the gathering they were snickering, ready to make me the patsy of their jokes. One spoke up asking how many deer did I see?
I said, six maybe eight, got a shot at two...missed judge the yardage.
The look on their faces told the story. They admitted not one of them had seen a deer. They quickly stopped snickering and changed the subject.