Experience & Value Versus Cost

LivingTheDream · Feb 8, 2017

Traditional Mozambique Safaris said:
@Wheels , now thats a whole new ball game...............

I am not sure this is off topic. If someone is offered a cheaper hunt does trophy quality get impacted. Same way if the experience is the trophy, this can greatly impact the value. I do think it would be ashamed for someone first experience in Africa to be hunting animals in a small area.

But Wild Africa is not for everyone, I am taking two friends on my next trip and this will be his first big game hunt, there is no way they are ready for Zim or Moz. But if it gets them into hunting and maybe wanting to go back, it will be a win for me.

siml · Feb 8, 2017

@James Jeffrey - HuntingAgent.com I always listen to @Wheels , that was tongue in cheek. I respect what Wheels says.

Royal27 · Feb 8, 2017

James Jeffrey - HuntingAgent.com said:
@Traditional Mozambique Safaris is @Wheels off topic? The thread started off about experience and value over cost. I think hunting mature animals is part of the experience and definitely adds value. Shooting immature animal may be cost effective for outfitters as animals can be considered "prime" sooner and hunts are completed faster. That's why guys on deer farms shoot deer at 3 yrs and not 4, hunting a mature deer that is 5-6 can be very difficult even on a ranch, but a young deer.......

funny... I thought it was off topic, but you're right it isn't.

Even with the buffalo example - we've all seen soft bossed bulls that have been shot with a proud client, who often doesn't know better.

Wheels · Feb 8, 2017

Traditional Mozambique Safaris said:
@James Jeffrey - HuntingAgent.com I always listen to @Wheels , that was tongue in cheek. I respect what Wheels says.

Understood completely. No problem.

"Revenge is a dish best served cold"

JamesJ · Feb 8, 2017

Sorry guys, i'm slow today.

BRICKBURN · Feb 8, 2017

James Jeffrey - HuntingAgent.com said:
Sorry guys, i'm slow today.

It's the Liver recuperation program kicking in slowly.

JamesJ · Feb 8, 2017

I'm like a gecko it just grows back.

firehuntfish · Feb 8, 2017

Wheels said:
@firehuntfish , I don't think anyone is trying to dismiss an RSA pg hunt. I certainly am not. I find them enjoyable. I think what @James Jeffrey - HuntingAgent.com and others including myself were trying to get at is just the opposite. There are some that criticize a free range hunt because it costs 10-50% more. Individuals act like it is stupid to hunt a free range animal and make posts to the hunt that is offered and criticize it.

Hello Wheels,
My comments were not meant to pertain to this post per se. I was speaking much more broadly as to comments I have seen in the past from a few members fortunate to have hunted some of these dream destinations and species. There are plenty of subtle, yet no less dismissive comments to be found and you don't have to look too hard. It's unfair, and unwarranted in this forum.

I personally have not seen any comments to the contrary with members criticizing free range destinations that are more expensive...? If that is occurring, those posters are indeed uninformed and should refrain from commentary as well.

Wheels said:
Even comparing RSA pg hunts dollar for dollar is not always apples to apples. There are plenty of other factors. We can all look at trophies in the hunting reports. Often you can see significant differences in the size or maturity of the animals. Many times your cheaper hunts have smaller trophies. You have to consider the size of the farm. Does X acres support an offtake of Y kudu a year or does that farm have to supplement animals from the auction? Facilities? etc.

Now, in regard to comparing RSA, Namibia, Botswana etc., plainsgame hunts and outfitters, that is a whole new ballgame, and a subject definitely worth discussing possibly in another thread.... I do agree with you wholeheartedly that not all game ranch hunts are apples to apples. Far from it quite frankly, for the factors that you mention and then some...

Biddleman · Feb 8, 2017

Royal27 said:
funny... I thought it was off topic, but you're right it isn't.

Even with the buffalo example - we've all seen soft bossed bulls that have been shot with a proud client, who often doesn't know better.

My personal thoughts for shooting soft bossed bulls (thinking that it's a trophy) is that is their own damn fault for not researching and educating themselves. Especially in this age of the internet.

Royal27 · Feb 8, 2017

Biddleman said:
My personal thoughts for shooting soft bossed bulls (thinking that it's a trophy) is that is their own damn fault for not researching and educating themselves. Especially in this age of the internet.

Great point.

Red Leg · Feb 8, 2017

firehuntfish said:
Hello Wheels,
My comments were not meant to pertain to this post per se. I was speaking much more broadly as to comments I have seen in the past from a few members fortunate to have hunted some of these dream destinations and species. There are plenty of subtle, yet no less dismissive comments to be found and you don't have to look too hard. It's unfair, and unwarranted in this forum.

I personally have not seen any comments to the contrary with members criticizing free range destinations that are more expensive...? If that is occurring, those posters are indeed uninformed and should refrain from commentary as well.

Now, in regard to comparing RSA, Namibia, Botswana etc., plainsgame hunts and outfitters, that is a whole new ballgame, and a subject definitely worth discussing possibly in another thread.... I do agree with you wholeheartedly that not all game ranch hunts are apples to apples. Far from it quite frankly, for the factors that you mention and then some...

With respect to comparing PG hunts, I could not agree more.

I think I was branded as totally against high fenced hunting by a previous poster, and that is incorrect. There are some great experiences to be had. My rule of thumb is if the fenced concession is of sufficient size that the population is self sustaining and doesn't realize that it is confined because it can exist in a normal habitat range, then I have no issues at all. Eden in Namibia was an example of such a destination - there are many others throughout Africa. I start getting uncomfortable when game is artificially bred behind fences to abnormal dimensions - read American whitetail and New Zealand Red Stag. And I have lost interest entirely when the operation is a "put and take" shooting preserve for big game. Doesn't mean it is illegal or technically unethical, but it does strain my notions of fair chase. In my one brief experience in RSA, I watched a nimrod loaded into a land cruiser and enter a 500 hectare enclosure which contained an eland bull bought and placed there for his shooting pleasure. A bit over a year later I spent two days walking down a free range Namibian eland. Those are dramatically different experiences, and to James's point, I doubt I paid much more at all for my bull than he did for his.

Wheels · Feb 8, 2017

Red Leg said:
With respect to comparing PG hunts, I could not agree more.

I think I was branded as totally against high fenced hunting by a previous poster, and that is incorrect. There are some great experiences to be had. .

I apologize for my poor memory and misquoting you.

Very gracious of you not to call me out by name, but it was me.

spike.t · Feb 8, 2017

Traditional Mozambique Safaris said:
@James Jeffrey - HuntingAgent.com I always listen to @Wheels , that was tongue in cheek. I respect what Wheels says.

yup simon i had worked out you were taking the

thi9elsp · Feb 8, 2017

@James Jeffrey - HuntingAgent.com I agree with your original post and will comment to it. I've been to Africa twice - 2011 and 2016. Zimbabwe - Zambezi Valley and Mozambique - Niassa Reserve. For me, I want new adventures in new, wild places. I've hunted SE Alaska, wilderness near Yellowstone and mountains of New Zealand. Ann and I have a map with pins in it and hope to continue to add more.

Both times I purchased the Africa hunts as auction hunts through DSC. Did I do as much vetting on the outfitters as I should have? Probably not. But, both experiences were fantastic and I was able to hunt buffalo and plains game in the wilds of Africa for plains game rates. That is my approach to extending my dollar as far as possible and getting extra value for my spend.

Because I want the wild adventures, I can't go every year or even every other year. It will probably be 2021 before we go again. Ann insists that we play golf in South Africa and see Victoria Falls. So, who knows where I'll hunt during that trip. Maybe Zambia, Caprivi or South Africa. Who knows.

I think is unfortunate that as a whole, our society looks for the quick and easy. As my report on Mozambique reflects, my hunt was anything but easy and maybe not as successful as some might measure it. But I wouldn't change it for anything.

So, I sit here and read new hunt reports wishing I was going again this year, but knowing, I will keep my 2013 car for another 5 or 8 years, pay the house down a bit more, build the savings back up and practice my shooting. Then when we can do it, off we'll go for another adventure. I just hope the tsetse flies aren't so bad the next place!

JamesJ · Feb 8, 2017

Great post!

LivingTheDream · Feb 8, 2017

@Red Leg it's funny you mention that the population has to be self sustaining. There is definitely a difference in how they act. I hunted fallow deer at a place where the herd was born, raised, ran around for years. The acted differently, and I can't describe it compared to how other animals acted in a high fence environment.

JES Adventures · Feb 8, 2017

Great topic James as supported by the numerous responses in the thread. I'm not at your level as an agent nowadays, I did it for a living in the 80's and 90's and made many great friends through the sport by helping my clients achieve their goals. Now I make my living brokering ranch real estate in Texas but due to the fact I've been around for 31 years and spent nearly 900 days on the Dark Continent I continue to get referrals and help a few folks every year. Most recently a father/daughter for a high school graduation trip. I listened carefully to what they wanted and chose the right outfitter - thats what a good agent does. But I was frank with him up front and told him if you want a real African Experience you're going to pay a little more. Game ranch hunting certainly has its place and the South Africans and Namibians should be commended for their efforts in propogating game for all of us. That being said, it takes an oufitter that is experience driven to deliver the best safari. If you are hunting the traditional way, on foot, walking and stalking, enjoying everything the bush has to offer the quarry will sell itself. Ultimately you will have happy clients and happy outfitters - thats what makes a great safari. I lost many a client over the years by telling them the truth when they were budget driven. At the end of the day, about half of them came back to me for their second safari. The rest were to embarrassed to admit their error.

CAustin · Feb 9, 2017

EXPERIENCE, VALUE, COST

Are terms all relative to the individual assessing the value, enjoying or not enjoying the experience and paying the cost of anything......be that a hunt, a new rifle or even a new car.

I'm not convinced that the terms in the context of this thread have to be mutually exclusive. ( Experience and Value vs Cost) As mentioned by some one can have a bad experience on a hunt after perceiving the hunt offer to have great value but at a reduced cost. No argument there from me. We need only read the hunt reports of dissatisfied customers to understand that truth. You can also have a great experience with high perceived value and crazy high costs on an offered hunt.
You can in fact have all three...great experience, high perceived value and low costs. In my four safaris to date, I have had 4 great experiences at high perceived value (my opinion), 2 at low cost and two of the safaris at high costs(my relative opinion). We all live and learn about the cost part of safaris. We read threads on this site as well as others and realize that maybe we didn't ask all the right questions on the first safari. You know.....those hidden costs or unexplained charges come into play. Of course there is always that apples to oranges thing to consider. Hopefully we do a little better each time we book a new safari adventure.

All of us have our own opinions derived from our life experiences. When somebody asks a question, any question on this site, that invites opinion in my humble view. People can sort through opinion at their own discretion and we know members on here are not shy about challenging the opinions of others when there is disagreement. Robust discussion and debate are what makes any forum worth it's salt, this one included. Hope that continues here in a respectful manner.
Furthermore, I do hope that we can all continue to share our opinions on this forum. To silence the opinions of others does no good service to anyone. I for one offer my opinions and thoughts to fellow hunters in good faith and I trust that others do so as well. After all, the experiences someone else has had my inform us and shape our opinions of the future.

Ranch hunts, free range hunts, put and shoot, low fence or high fence hunts, high costs or low costs all seem to sell without regards to the country in which they will take place or the size of the property. Any hunt that sells does so because in some way or another it represents a value to a given buyer.
Good luck selling the hunt is my wish for any outfitter. As some have said he is just trying to feed his family. If the outfitter isn't selling hunts he might want to re-evaluate his business model and maybe his marketing plan. It's not because someone on this site made an unsupportive comment about his offer. Conversely, I'm not at all convinced that an outfitter is selling a hunt because someone posts, Great Offer, Good Price, Wish I could take you up on this one! But nobody seems at all concerned by positive posts.....even the silly ones.
I don't necessarily place the same value on a particular hunt as the next guy nor should I. Why??!........because I have an opinion and mine is just as relative to me as the opinion of the next guy is to him.
When I share an opinion it's just that and nothing more! I don't claim to be an expert nor do I have any Outfitter Credentials listed under my name. So the next guy doesn't have to agree with me or give a rip about what I say and likewise I don't have to agree with him.
If my opinion is worth something to a fellow hunter......great! If my comment gives someone pause to reflect and ask more questions....great! If not......ok ....have a blessed day!

By the way I want the name and contact information of the outfitter providing the strippers! All opinions on this matter and topic are highly valued by me as they may well help determine my experience on the next safari!

KAROO WILD Safaris · Feb 9, 2017

CAustin said:
EXPERIENCE, VALUE, COST

Are terms all relative to the individual assessing the value, enjoying or not enjoying the experience and paying the cost of anything......be that a hunt, a new rifle or even a new car.

I'm not convinced that the terms in the context of this thread have to be mutually exclusive. ( Experience and Value vs Cost) As mentioned by some one can have a bad experience on a hunt after perceiving the hunt offer to have great value but at a reduced cost. No argument there from me. We need only read the hunt reports of dissatisfied customers to understand that truth. You can also have a great experience with high perceived value and crazy high costs on an offered hunt.
You can in fact have all three...great experience, high perceived value and low costs. In my four safaris to date, I have had 4 great experiences at high perceived value (my opinion), 2 at low cost and two of the safaris at high costs(my relative opinion). We all live and learn about the cost part of safaris. We read threads on this site as well as others and realize that maybe we didn't ask all the right questions on the first safari. You know.....those hidden costs or unexplained charges come into play. Of course there is always that apples to oranges thing to consider. Hopefully we do a little better each time we book a new safari adventure.

All of us have our own opinions derived from our life experiences. When somebody asks a question, any question on this site, that invites opinion in my humble view. People can sort through opinion at their own discretion and we know members on here are not shy about challenging the opinions of others when there is disagreement. Robust discussion and debate are what makes any forum worth it's salt, this one included. Hope that continues here in a respectful manner.
Furthermore, I do hope that we can all continue to share our opinions on this forum. To silence the opinions of others does no good service to anyone. I for one offer my opinions and thoughts to fellow hunters in good faith and I trust that others do so as well. After all, the experiences someone else has had my inform us and shape our opinions of the future.

Ranch hunts, free range hunts, put and shoot, low fence or high fence hunts, high costs or low costs all seem to sell without regards to the country in which they will take place or the size of the property. Any hunt that sells does so because in some way or another it represents a value to a given buyer.
Good luck selling the hunt is my wish for any outfitter. As some have said he is just trying to feed his family. If the outfitter isn't selling hunts he might want to re-evaluate his business model and maybe his marketing plan. It's not because someone on this site made an unsupportive comment about his offer. Conversely, I'm not at all convinced that an outfitter is selling a hunt because someone posts, Great Offer, Good Price, Wish I could take you up on this one! But nobody seems at all concerned by positive posts.....even the silly ones.
I don't necessarily place the same value on a particular hunt as the next guy nor should I. Why??!........because I have an opinion and mine is just as relative to me as the opinion of the next guy is to him.
When I share an opinion it's just that and nothing more! I don't claim to be an expert nor do I have any Outfitter Credentials listed under my name. So the next guy doesn't have to agree with me or give a rip about what I say and likewise I don't have to agree with him.
If my opinion is worth something to a fellow hunter......great! If my comment gives someone pause to reflect and ask more questions....great! If not......ok ....have a blessed day!

By the way I want the name and contact information of the outfitter providing the strippers! All opinions on this matter and topic are highly valued by me as they may well help determine my experience on the next safari!

Wiser words have not been spoken today...

twilly24 · Feb 9, 2017

The only reason this is a topic is because booking agents and Outfitters make promises they can't keep. Like you did yesterday and then deleted it. Instead of of defending the " guarantee" in your offer you just deleted it. Again if all outfitters were on the up and up this would not be a topic. Not saying you are one of the bad guys. But most guys are probably choosing a fence hunt because of it being cheaper and a guarantee.

Experience & Value Versus Cost

LivingTheDream

siml

Royal27

Wheels

JamesJ

BRICKBURN

JamesJ

firehuntfish

Biddleman

Royal27

Red Leg

Wheels

spike.t

thi9elsp

JamesJ

LivingTheDream

JES Adventures

CAustin

KAROO WILD Safaris

twilly24

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