Next step up?

Ryanlo

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Have a 404 and it is very easy on the shoulder. What would be the best next step up to try? Really having a lot of fun with this 404. I can see how these bigger cal rifles can get very very very addictive. Not sure how to explain it. Every time I shoot it I smile. Have smaller cal rifles. But just not the same
 
Well making the next step up would be a .458 of some sorts and I'm sure it is a noticeable but impact, but just how much I'm not sure?

You're almost in the zone of jumping into one of the .500's from here. For me many moons ago I pulled the trigger on a .505Gibbs and won't do that again. But that said I have no idea of the weight, stock fit of that rifle, it is quite critical to get that right when it comes to managing the big bores.
 
Jack O'Connor mentioned big bore shooters in one of his books. I forget the exact wording but it was to the effect that when they shoot the big gun they feel a sense of accomplishment. I'd guess the next step up would be a magnum length 458, such as the 458 Lott; or you could skip that and go to the Rigby wildcats.
 
depending on what you mean by "step up", you can go a couple different ways with this.

A. a larger bore diameter, one possible step up would be moving to a .458" or .474" diameter bullet. cartridges such as the 458 WM, 450 NE 3 1/4", 458 Lott (light loads), and 470 NE will give you a larger bore diameter without any real increase in recoil (compared to a 404 Jeffery firing a 400gr bullet at 2300fps).

B. more recoil, the other possible step up would be moving to larger more powerful cartridges. the cartridges that come to mind are the 458 Lott, 450 Rigby, 500 NE, 500 Jeffery, and 505 Gibbs.

if you want the best of both worlds i recommend the 458 Lott. you can load the 458 Lott at around 2100fps for similar recoil to the 404 Jeffery and still have plenty of killing power or you can load it up to 2300fps for maximum penetration on large disgruntled game. at full tilt a 458 Lott will generate recoil on similar levels to cartridges like the 500 NE but its not required for you to run it that hot assuming your a hand loader. having said that, im a big fan of the 500's! the 500 NE, 500 Jeffery, and 505 Gibbs are my first choice cartridges when it comes to large bore rifles.

-matt
 
Is it a big jump from the 458wm to the 500j or 505g?
 
Go with the 458Lott. But the 404 you have will take care of anything you want to hunt.
 
If you want to get a common caliber that is readily available and a good step up, in a bolt gun, go with a 458 Lott.

But if you want more of an old classic that gives you a definite step up, and again staying with a bolt gun, go for a 505 Gibbs. Or to stay with the Jeffrey line, go for a 500 Jeffrey;)

I have two 505's and have let several people shoot them and as long as you receive (and follow, @Royal27 ) good instructions prior to pulling the trigger on a live round, neither is difficult to shoot. It is a memorable experience though;)

Strive for a weight of about 11 to 12 pounds... my Ruger RSM is a bit light but I wanted to take it to Africa and did not want to be married to extra weight nor drill into that beautiful stock. So I strapped on a Murry leather but stock cartridge holder. 6 of those big loads adds enough to keep it very manageable. Besides, when shooting at a large critter with it, you can hardly hear it go "pop", much less feel recoil. ;)
 
I have two 505's and have let several people shoot them and as long as you receive (and follow, @Royal27 ) good instructions prior to pulling the trigger on a live round, neither is difficult to shoot. It is a memorable experience though;)

Wait just a dang minute!!!!

I'm offended. I followed instructions very well. When @gizmo told me to hold his beer while he put on the bandaid I did it without question!

IMG-20161020-WA0016.jpg
 
Right. Nothing is hard to shoot, but just try and get up after you've held the breech of a 155mm howitzer to your shoulder and pulled the lanyard. Let's see, Newton said that if I shoot a 98 pound bullet at.....
 
Is it a big jump from the 458wm to the 500j or 505g?

there is a substantial difference in recoil between the 458 WM and the 500 Jeffery/505 Gibbs. the 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs use much larger cases to fire heavier bullets at much higher velocities. the 500 NE 3" will have less recoil then the 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs but still more then a 458 WM.

here is a comparison (average loads):
458 WM = 480/500gr bullet at 2000-2150fps.
500 Jeffery = 535gr/570gr bullet at 2150-2300fps. (the 535gr bullet is not usually loaded below 2300fps)
505 Gibbs = 525gr/600gr bullet at 2050-2300fps. (the 525gr bullet is not usually loaded below 2300fps)

I used two different loads in my 505 Gibbs, a 570gr bullet at 2300fps and a 600gr bullet at 2250fps. I shot my cape buffalo with a 570gr Swift A-frame cooking along at 2300fps. @ActionBob uses a 525gr Barnes at 2300fps in his 505 Gibbs which has served him well on some of the biggest game Africa has to offer.

on the note of the 458 WM... I don't like it. I believe the case is too small to provide many options for a hand loader. the 458 Lott is very capable of give you as much or as little as you will ever need/want assuming you hand load.

-matt
 
There are so many to pick from..... i would suggest looking at something that shoots a 500gr point at like 2150 fps. This will open up your search and you can pick which one you favour.....
 
My advice is shoot a 458 Lott and then make a decision. They are more plentiful as DG guns go, and you can find someone out there with one to let you shoot one. I handload, and shoot a 375 H&H very well. A 458 Lott is all the gun I want to handle, and it's ballistics make it good for any DG
 
I would without a doubt recommend the 500 Jeff.

In 458 Caliber I would only consider the 450 Rigby, I would stay away from a 458 Win. I would much rather use the 404 Jeff that you have or 416 Rigby instead of a 458 Win.

The 458 LOTT achieves what the 458 Win was supposed to achieve in the first place, only gripe I have with it is the straight walled case and belt. With the 500 Jeff you get superior performance with very similar recoil.

Below some of my thoughts regarding the 500 Jeff and DG back-up rifles:

Before the 460 Weatherby arrived on the seen it was the most powerful hunting cartridge.
It is devastatingly effective on DG even in the most dangerous circumstances.
It does not have a straight walled case(a good thing on a DG back-up rifle).
It does not have a belt(another good thing on a DG back-up rifle).
It has a rolling recoil rather than a sharp recoil which can lead to flinching and slow recovery times for the second shot if needed.
In the right action you can have one in the chamber and 3 in the mag(not that you would ever need them if the first shot is placed correctly).

The 500 Jeffery beats the significantly larger capacity .505 Gibbs in velocity and energy, while offering a broader selection of bullets for handloaders. This is achieved by loading the .500 Jeffery to a higher maximum average pressure. The 500 Jeffery operates in the 46,000 PSI range, the 505 Gibbs at 39,000 PSI. To put this in perspective, the even smaller .500 A-Square out performs both of these larger cartridges by upping its pressure to 64,000 PSI.

Both the 505 Gibbs and the 500 A-square have much more felt recoil than the 500 Jeff.

Below ballistic comparisons speak for themselves.

Ballistic performance-500 Jeff
Case capacity 158 gr H2O (10.2 cm3)
Max pressure 46,000 PSI
Bullet mass/type
Velocity Energy

570 gr (37 g) Soft Nose 2,200 ft/s (670 m/s) 6,127 ft·lbf (8,307 J)
570 gr (37 g) Barnes TSX 2,507 ft/s (764 m/s) 7,957 ft·lbf (10,788 J)
535 gr (35 g) SP 2,549 ft/s (777 m/s) 7,721 ft·lbf (10,468 J)
600 gr (39 g) PP 2,468 ft/s (752 m/s) 8,117 ft·lbf (11,005 J)
465 gr (30 g) Lehigh Solid 2,551 ft/s (778 m/s) 6,721 ft·lbf (9,112 J)

Ballistic performance-505 Gibbs
Maximum pressure 39,160 psi (270.0 MPa)
Case capacity 178 gr H2O (11.5 cm3)
Bullet mass/type
Velocity Energy

600 gr (39 g) Protected Point 2,100 ft/s (640 m/s) 5,877 ft·lbf (7,968 J)
600 gr (39 g) FMJ 2,100 ft/s (640 m/s) 5,877 ft·lbf (7,968 J)
525 gr (34 g) Welded Core SP 2,300 ft/s (700 m/s) 6,180 ft·lbf (8,380 J)

Ballistic performance-458 Win
Maximum pressure (C.I.P.) 62,000 psi (4,300 bar)
Bullet mass/type
Velocity Energy

300 gr (19 g) HP 2,606 ft/s (794 m/s) 4,525 ft·lbf (6,135 J)
350 gr (23 g) RN 2,557 ft/s (779 m/s) 5,083 ft·lbf (6,892 J)
400 gr (26 g) FN 2,468 ft/s (752 m/s) 5,411 ft·lbf (7,336 J)
500 gr (32 g) RN 2,192 ft/s (668 m/s) 5,336 ft·lbf (7,235 J)

Ballistic performance-404 Jeff
Maximum pressure (C.I.P.) 52,938 psi (364.99 MPa)
Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy

400 gr (26 g) RN 2,125 ft/s (648 m/s) 4,020 ft·lbf (5,450 J)
400 gr (26 g) DGX 2,300 ft/s (700 m/s) 4,698 ft·lbf (6,370 J)
450 gr (29 g) FMJ 2,150 ft/s (660 m/s) 4,620 ft·lbf (6,260 J)

For me 500 Jeff all the way!
 
Would it be inappropriate for me to mention that I have a NIB 500 Jeff up for sale right now at a great price? :Happy:
 
Would it be inappropriate for me to mention that I have a NIB 500 Jeff up for sale right now at a great price? :Happy:


Very very very inappropriate. Leaving in March for NZ with the wife and 5 kids. Don't have any spare money. Should not have bought the 404j but could not pass it up. You should donate it to a guy with 5 kids us dump truck drivers don't make much
 
Amado- I don't see it listed in the classifieds. Is it on some other site?
 
Amado- I don't see it listed in the classifieds. Is it on some other site?
Sorry, I should have listed it here. I just listed a few days ago on Gunbroker.com.
 
Very very very inappropriate. Leaving in March for NZ with the wife and 5 kids. Don't have any spare money. Should not have bought the 404j but could not pass it up. You should donate it to a guy with 5 kids us dump truck drivers don't make much
My sincerest apologies! I hope you find it in your heart to forgive me. :)
 
458 lott is more available , but i have a 500 jeff , and it is more fun . Handloading you can take it down to about 4800ftlbs at muzzle and then wind it all the way up to 8100, if you don't mind getting hit with a cricket bat. :D
 

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